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Remote Viewing



President, Farsight Institute

The Art Bell Radio Show

July 19, 1996


ART BELL A few announcements, and then a real cosmic voyage ahead. Because tonight as promised, a tenured PhD professor at Emory University, Dr. Courtney Brown, heads a group of remote viewers at something called the Farsight Institute. And this is one of the most fascinating topics that one can imagine. So all the way from the home of the newly opened Olympic games in

Atlanta Georgia, Dr. Brown will come... [discussion of other subjects]

ART BELL This morning's guest, Dr. Courtney Brown, professor Brown, also has a web page, and when you go to my web page this morning to get one of these crop circle pictures no doubt, and you want to know about Cosmic Voyage, about Remote Viewing, we have a linkup, as we usually do, due to the attentiveness of my webmaster, Keith Rowland. You will see that link, and you can jump over to the good Doctor's web page... [discussion of other subjects]


ART BELL All right, are you strapped in, are you ready? Courtney Brown, Doctor Brown, Professor Brown, P-H-D, is an Associate Professor of Political Science at Emory University in

Atlanta, specializing in non-linear mathematical modeling of social phenomenon, environmental politics and elections. He held the Charles Grove Hanes's Professorship at UCLA and was a

Hewlitt fellow at the Carter President Center. He is the author of several books including Serpents in the Sand, sounds interesting, Essays on the Non-linear Nature of Politics

<chuckles>, and uh - I like that title - and Human Destiny and Chaos and Catastrophe Theories, both published in 1995. The good doctor heads a group of remote viewers at a place called

the Farsight Institute, and one of their main targets, I understand, has been Mars, but let us begin at the beginning, uh Doctor welcome to the program, can you hear me?


DR BROWN I can hear you very well and Art, I wanna say thank you very much for having me on your show, it is truly a great honor.


ART BELL Well, it is a great honor to have you, and I can assure you that over the last weeks and months I have been inundated with faxes and email and so forth and so on forth saying, you have got to get Doctor Brown on! {Brown: ...kind words...} Alright, uh, I guess for our new listeners and we have many, uh, who have not, and don't understand and who have not heard what Remote Viewing is, it would be in order, I've got sort of a written description you sent me here but I'd like to have your words, Doctor, uh, for the uninitiated, what is remote viewing?


DR BROWN Well, remote viewing quite simply is a mental procedure. Now, it's a trainable mental procedure. It enables a person to extract accurate, descriptive information from distant locations. Now remote viewing it also works across time, in the sense that the remote viewer can actually extract information from the past, present or future. Totally transparent with regard to time, as if time doesn't exist, in fact we know now that that's not a metaphor, we know now that

in reality, I'll talk about this as the hours go on but we know now that the actual fact is that time is a limitation of our perception, time is not a real thing.


ART BELL Isn't that time our invention?


DR BROWN Well, uh, that's uh, that's what many people have recently been discovering, that uh, we may in fact in the broader view of things before our lives and after our lives be a species that in fact helped design our current situation and [?] in fact an invention, but I, think I perhaps I should touch upon that a little later on in the show with a little more background to it, the reality is time with remote viewing is not a hindrance at all, you can see anything past, present or future. Uh, Scientific Remote Viewing is the version of remote viewing that I'll be talking about tonight. It refers to -- sometimes it's called "SRV," Scientific Remote Viewing -- it refers to a set of protocols that are a modernized version of the original techniques that were used and developed by the U.S. military in the 1980's and 90's, totally for espionage purposes --

ART BELL Alright, I'll stop you there, and uh, those who don't know, Nightline, ABC's Nightline, did a full show on the military's revelations that they had been using remote viewers,

remote viewing, doing remote viewing, in an ongoing project for what Doctor, 20 years, something like that?


DR BROWN Well actually they'd been using operationally uh, during that time the 80's was really when it was at its highest point, but the remote viewing studies, the scientific studies

funded by the military had been going on for as long as, as long as 30 years. The military had been deeply involved in this for a, a long time for very very good reasons. First of all, it did just recently come out that the military was involved in all of this, but it was one of the most highly

classified secrets held by our government basically since the Manhattan project -- ART BELL -- and I take it no doubt that the Russians were involved as well --


DR BROWN Well of course, there, you know during the cold war there was something on our side for everything that there was on their side, and vice versa, and they had their own psychic

warfare espionage program, but they looked at it from a different angle from the way the United States did it. We approached it from the perspective of developing a set of procedures that could be trained so that you would not have to rely on natural psychics, and the Soviets went a different

route, they developed a set of screening techniques that were used for sorting out the very best natural psychics in all of their territory. They in fact did develop a program that was very successful. The U.S. military's program had an operational success rate, uh, variously? reported but in general, uh, 85% of the data had to be correct 85% of the time. {Bell: Wow.} Now that was extremely high, that was nothing remotely similar to anything you get with a 1-900 number {Bell: laughs} and that type of thing, this was a very highly classified project -- ART BELL Well let me ask you this --


DR BROWN But the Soviets did it differently, they used natural psychics.


ART BELL -- and their success rate?


DR BROWN Eighty percent. But that means they got to be fairly close to the U.S. accuracy rate. But the Soviet Union came apart, as you know, and it should be noted that their technology for doing this, for setting up a team and getting the procedures set in place that organized the highly trained psychics to get this eight-five accuracy rate which was no small task, those procedures were sold to the highest bidders when the Soviet Union collapsed, and two countries bought them, and one of those is a perceived enemy of the United States, that we have bombed in the past, and so, you can be guaranteed, whether you hear about it in the news or not --




DR BROWN Uh, actually, it's so sensitive, there are a couple of topics that I don't want to mention specifics {Bell: and we just [found?] one of them?}, but they are, they are countries

that we have bombed, that have, that long memories, that have grudges, and remote viewing will be around for a long time, if for no other reason than for national security interests.


ART BELL Uh hmmmn. Um, what do you say to somebody who says baloney, new age, claptrap, what a bunch of silliness, uh, there's no uh, way to document the kind of success rates that people like yourself claim, I'm throwing the worst at you here {Brown: Sure.}, how do you respond to that?


DR BROWN Well this is a very common statement, uh, you must understand that it comes from a species that is genetically designed to be almost blind to the "other side" of life. In my book, Cosmic Voyage, quite literally as the subtitle says it is a scientific, scientific discovery of extra- terrestrials visiting earth, but you must understand that much of the scientific community is hampered by the very fact that we are genetically set up, so to speak, to be so blind to that other

side of life, I call that side of life, that's been called the spirit side or the soul side, I, I use a more generic term, um, which is, basically there's a whole realm of life that we've now discovered on that other side of life, the side where we came from, where the soul is, we are in fact part of it, I call it the sub-space side of life, and that has in fact caught on quite well because it describes a whole arena of existence and we are in fact composite beings, with a physical, you know, blood flesh and bone --


ART BELL Alright doctor let me ask you this --


[lack of clarity as Bell and Brown both talk]...


ART BELL ...with respect to this side, uh, of life, and I agree with you, that uh, but uh, what I'm not sure about is whether it's something we once had, and have become numb to in modern civilization, and has always been there, or whether it is something we are now refining, acquiring, using more of our brains, is it something new or something old that is just now new again...


DR BROWN It goes back to the beginning of existence. You see remote viewing is innate in every human, you don't have to be talented to do it, you have to be trained to do it, and it goes

back, in fact the earliest remote viewers were the prophets, the ancient the seers, and some of them were pretty good {Bell: Nostradamus}, some of them were very excellent at being able to

perceive things across time, across space, in fact many of our biblical stories are in fact fairly accurate remote viewing perceptions. Uh, in my book Cosmic Voyage, for example, I [?] -- there's a chapter on Adam and Eve. And that was a very interesting target to look at, because at first we thought that was just a biblical story --


ART BELL You looked at it?


DR BROWN Oh yeah, because it's a very important -- we found out a very important thing, because in fact, see the remote viewing done by the early, early seers, they didn't call it

remote viewing of course but they just had people who were naturally inclined, they perceived something, but they put it within their own framework of understanding, and these ancient

seers perceived in their own trance-like states that there was a, somehow couple involved in the early days of humanity, and that somehow there was a dispute, there was a war of some type,

that there was some type of a betrayal, and that somehow Adam and Eve were somehow involved in the beginning, the Genesis of human life, as, as the early remote viewers the early seers

knew it, so when we actually did the remote viewing for this, we found that in fact, the ancient prophets were pretty good,they got most of it right, what they didn't get is things that they could never understand within their culture, within their time, what they didn't get was that the couple, Adam and Eve,were project managers of a genetic and cultural uplift project [?...] --

ART BELL Holy mackeral!


DR BROWN -- they came here with ships, and there was in fact a sub-space, and physical dimensional war, and that the sides did in fact, did have to take sides --

[lack of clarity as Bell and Brown speak simultaneously]


ART BELL Doctor wait, uh, boy this is getting heavy fast, let me stop you -- again just for a second -- so that I understand and the audience understands, a practiced professional uh, uh

remote viewer, how does he do it? -- do you in other words, go into a trance state -- hear my whole question -- I would like to know, and the audience I'm sure wants to know, it it like,

are you looking through somebody else's eyes, are you physically having an out of body experience and looking at it with uh, with your own eyes, as though you would stand up in

the room, in other words, I wanna know how you see, and what it is that you see...


DR BROWN OK. What these procedures are, very simply, when you're sitting down you're sitting down at your own desk, and the procedures for the remote viewing session, just the

mechanical procedures themselves, take about an hour, with prep time of about half an hour, there's a lot, there's some analysis and other things that are done afterward, the total

thing takes about three hours start to finish before you're out of there, but the actual procedures themselves start to finish take about an hour. Now, the remote viewing itself, what it is is the following: the best way I can tell you what the experience is like, when someone is remote viewing during that hour of intensive orientation, it's not an out of body experience, that's something different. It is not a trance experience either. What it is is a shifting of awareness, a shifting of perception, now basically, look at this, what are you looking at now, you don't have to answer, just in general,

you're looking at your microphone?, your listeners may be looking at the steering wheel of their car, or they may be looking at something in their homes, whatever they're looking at, they're looking at something, whatever you're looking at, in your mind's eye, keep your eyes open, bring in the image of a pencil. Now with your eyes open, you're still looking at whatever at your look -- now you're also looking at this image of a pencil in your mind's eye, now note the [?] heart label,

notice the #2 on the pencil, the metal band around the eraser,the pink eraser, the sharp point at the other end, notice that this pencil that you're seeing, even though your eyes are open and you're not physically looking at a pencil, you're nonethless seeing a pencil. And what we have found out is that -- this is from the neurologists that found this not, not the remote, they're neurologists -- have found out that inside the brain, there is a physical layer of cells that basically is in the frontal part and goes back of the brain, that the ocular image from your eye is projected onto, literally like a movie screen. And when you see the [?] heart label, the pencil and everything, the remembered image is taken from say, your hard drive of the memory, it's taken from your memory and projected on to that same screen. But notice that image of the pencil, notice it's a little transparent, it's a little {Bell: Right.} uh, translucent in the sense that you can see through it, not as bright an image as the stuff that's coming into your eyes, so the remembered image is dimmer than the actual ocular image. it's fuzzier, it's [?] -- what you're doing when you're remote viewing is you're shifting your awareness, even though your eyes are open, you're shifting your awareness, away from the

physical ocular image {Bell: I understand.} away from the remembered images {Bell: I understand.}, onto this remote viewing image --


ART BELL I understand, Doctor, Doctor we've gotta pause right here... stay right there, Dr. Courtney Brown is my guest and we'll be right back...




ART BELL And underway, a good, cogent explanation of what remote viewing really is. And for the first time, I'm beginning to grasp where we're going. My guest is Dr. Courtney Brown, Professor Brown from Emory University. He leads a team of remote viewers. You'd be well advised to listen closely,because maybe you too can take a cosmic voyage, I and suspect

the answer is yes. [discussion of other subjects]


ART BELL All right here we go again, Doctor, welcome back to the program. I really am able to grasp so far where we have been, uh to look at an object in front of you, picture the pencil, uh which I can easily do, and that is as if it is from our hard drive, we have dredged this from our memory. But that is not remote viewing, is it?


DR BROWN No that's remembering an image from the past. And it's as if there are three different projectors in our own brain, and the three are, the projector that gets images from

the eye, another projector with a lower luminosity, a dimmer bulb, that gets images from the memory, and then a third projector with the dimmest bulb, and probably the foggiest

lens, and that is the one that gets things from what we call the sub-space side of ourselves. Now, I want to say something that's very important, that most of your listeners are gonna really wanna key in on this, you know there've been a lot of complaints over the decades, uh, about wasted military spending {Bell: Yes.}, about how our military's spent so much money for a hammer, so much money for a toilet seat or whatever, but I want to tell you that the military, the US Army, the Defense Intelligence Agency, not the CIA, the DIA, every branch of the government has its own spies, even the IRS has it's own spies, but the defense intelligence agency, the DIA, the Pentagon,

invested over a couple decades, only 20 million at Stanford Research Institute, now called SRI International, 20 million dollars is pocket change as far as the Pentagon is concerned,and for only 20 million dollars they developed over a couple of decades these protocols of remote viewing and let me tell you that if you have no other reason for wanting these protocols around than this, listen here: what the scientists did at Stanford Research Institute, at SRI International, the most, one of the most prestigious defense scientific think tanks, laboratories on the planet earth, what they did is give the world absolute positive proof, certifiable positive proof, in laboratory conditions, of the existence of the human soul. Because you see, remote viewing is not possible in the absence of a soul, because you see don't physically go to any of these wait a minute.}, reliably consistent --


ART BELL Right, wait, wait just one second, that really is incredible, but how does it prove it - it - let me ask it this way -- you say it proves the existence of the human soul --


DR BROWN Because see, the soul has different physics, different physical characteristics, different aspects, than the human physical body, it extends beyond your physical body, we now know that when the physical body dies it sloughs off -- you are not dead, the personality does not go away, the part of you that is in fact doing the remote viewing is the essential self, and that continues on -- and what you must understand is that the remote viewing itself, when you're doing that, we call that other side of ourself, that is, human, the soul side, the "sub-the essential you that you're using when you're remote viewing,and it's that component that is projecting onto thephysical

brain, that foggier, fuzzier image --


ART BELL Got you {Brown: that you're using...} but I'm -- but I'm still not clear, in other words, suppose I were to say to you, what you're talking about, I firmly believe, uh, does exist, I believe you can do it, it can be done, people can be trained to do it, but: um, suppose I were to argue with you and say, it does not establish scientifically the existence of the soul, it establishes scientifically the ability of the brain to accomplish things that, that we have long forgotten --


DR BROWN Well you see, the, the brain is a electro-chemical physical apparatus [Bell: right], under the normal laws of three plus one dimensional physics, it is not possible for anything electrochemical physical to do what it does with regard to remote viewing, there has to be another component,another aspect, completely un -- well, not yet completely understood by the science of today, and in scientific terms what you'd say is, there is a hypothesis. An hypothesis is a statement that you want to see if it works out. {Bell: Yes...} And the hypothesis is, if there is a soul that is fundamentally non-physical but exists as real as the head or the foot or anything else, if there is a soul which is fundamentally non-physical then it should be able to do things, such as know things, perceive things, that the physical body cannot do, and so you give it a test, you develop and use these remote viewing procedures and in fact you find out that you have to reject the null hypothesis which is that there is no soul, you have to accept the alternative hypothesis that there is, because you in fact are able to do that which the physical body cannot do.


ART BELL Well...


DR BROWN That's the nature of the hypothesis testing - if you're wondering about that, I have to say that that's what all of science is out there doing, they're doing these hypothesis,they say IF this exists, then you must be able to this do X, Y or Z with it -- and that's how we build our airplanes, that's how we build our skyscrapers, our bridges, all the realm of physics, all the realm of science is built up, built up on establishing hypothesis, and these hypothesis are what we use to fundamentally come up with what we call our laws. The laws of sub-space are in our, what you might call our state of Genesis, of understanding, we don't understand all of the physics of the soul, we don't understand all of the physics of the sub-space side of life, the spiritual side of life, but there is nothing in any spiritual text where God has forbidden us to ever investigate the physics of the spirituality, or the physics of consciousness, and we're just at that beginning, so part of your question I've answered Art, the rest of the question is to be answered not by myself, but to be answered by physicists, other scientists, as the decades go on, as we unravel every little small piece of this physics of the, of the soul. But we know at this point with absolute certifiable uh, factual understanding, that there is more to us than just a physical body because in fact remote viewing would be impossible without that other aspect of ourselves.


ART BELL Does remote viewing, uh, at any point establish, truly, the immortality of the soul itself?


DR BROWN Well, just the fact of being able to remote view does not do that. {Bell: Right. Right.} But having remote viewed both myself and re - and have, and you know we've had over

thirty students at the farsight institute, that's F-A-R-S-I-G- H-T like seeing far, one word, and we've had over 30 students, and the military itself trained nineteen remote viewers. Having had these remote viewers operational, uh, we now know that in fact we've perceived all sorts of things, uh, that, uh,it's clear as could be that we do not die. It's not just the existence, ability to remote view and train it, it's the fact that we have, once gotten that existence, gotten that ability,

trained ourselves, used it perceiv, before our own birth, after our death, we have perceived things that deeply go into the realm of the non-physical -- mind you, that everything that I've talked about with remote viewing as originally developed and in training, was always done with verifiable targets, physical hard targets {Bell: Understood.} that you can verify,so when you use these exact same procedures, you get extraordinarily accurate, great accuracy rates, on the more difficult targets, more esoteric targets, things with the realm of life after death and so on, we get very, very good, reliable types of information, using those same, those same procedures that are sufficiently accurate to risk men and women's lives on the battlefield for, you can then use those procedures to

answer other questions {Bell: Yes...}, other more global --


ART BELL Alright, before we leave the nature of the soul, I wanna -- the soul, I wanna ask you about the nature of the soul, obviously you, uh, far sight, uh with regard to the nature of the soul, uh Doctor, do we come back, are we reincarnated, are --

DR BROWN We have, we have found that there is no police force out there that would stop a personality, a sub-space being, a soul, from coming back in physical life if he or she so wished.

We have found that in fact many people have had, we have checked it out, we have remote viewed under totally blind conditions and I'll explain that later on in the show, under totally laboratory type conditions, we have found out that in fact, people have existed before, we have found out that they have existed in physical form many times -- you see, the physical body, we know, is just a vehicle, like your car, and after a certain number of years, it wears out and it drops off -- but the driver is still there. The driver, the personality, the sub-space being, you may call it the soul, is there before the physical body is turned on, and it's there after the physical body decays, and drops off. But we absolutely know that the body is just something we live within, we are occupying it, and the genetics of the body is absolutely spectacularly fascinating {Bell: It is!} because our genetics are so structured that, in our particular genetic mix, a lot of ET's we now know, do not have genetic mixes, genetic mixes like ours, our particular genetic mix makes us almost totally blind to the flavor of the soul, to the flavor, to the memory of who we were, who we are in fact, where we came from, in fact, uh,in ET circles we've found out that we are often referenced as a species, as -- and not derisively, not mockingly, but with admiration -- we are often called 'The Masters of Limitation' because we have collective, we have a set of genes that, that

develop into bodies that make us almost blind to whatever came before, and whatever comes after, and we don't see past time,we don't see past our physical bodies, our physical experience,

and that's because of the genetic structure we have, other ET's have different genetic mixes, and in fact, don't have those problems at all. Well you may say, 'Well that's a problem with us,' but --


ART BELL In fact, I would say, doesn't it mean we're more or less cosmic dummies?


DR BROWN Well, you could say that, but you see, but before we were physically born we knew everything, and after we die, we know everything once again, what would be the purpose of

wanting to come into these very limited physical bodies? Well the purpose is, we now know from remote viewing, data that goes back a long time, we now know that what happens when you come

into physical form like this, by forgetting everything that you've been before, you basically as far as you're concerned, have a hundred years, approximately, a little less, or more whatever, however long you live, to pack everything you possibly can imagine into that short period of time, every experience you can possibly think of, to make love one more time, to get another car, get another job, to go to the beach one more time, to get, to write one more book, to do one more thing, the point is you develop your personality more in one lifetime as a physical human because you run a race of time, for those few short years of your life you do everything --


ART BELL Otherwise we would be like cosmic welfare recipients sitting around not concerned about packing anything into this life at all --


DR BROWN We, we have found out that other -- in the sub-space side of life that you don't die, that there's no real pressure to develop, and development occurs more slowly {Bell: Fascinating.}, this is an acceleration school that we live in, and uh, in fact, I might mention that we have remote viewed a few other species, uh, and in fact when you remote view Adam and Eve, right now of course they're not dead, they're not dead anymore than when they were project ET genetic and cultural uplift managers in their project here, but when you remote view them, and it's an interesting flavor that uh is sometimes perceived, um, some of the remote viewers don't perceive much of a change in Adam and Eve when they were back here on Earth long ago and where they are now, and they have a different genetic mix, much more transparent across the sub-space divide, so they knew from the get-go that they were composite beings,two things put together, physical and sub-space, and um, even when I did the remote viewing on them I sort of said, boy

someone needs to put a burr under their saddle, they've not done much in all these thousands of years, so that's what the advantages of being a human is, by cutting yourself off from the past for these short years, you put yourself through the juggernaut of trying to evolve quickly and when you're done, you know I must say that we have found out, this was done, uh,not only through remote viewing studies but also at the Monroe Institute in Faber Virginia, it's an institute developed by Robert Monroe, uh --


ART BELL I was honored to interview Robert Monroe before he died.

DR BROWN He's uh, a great being, and when uh, at the Monroe institute they had found out, uh, using different technologies but -- technology that has also been extensively used by the U.S. military -- that when people graduate from the human school, from the human experience, when they go on, and they finally? had enough, they are extremely well respected out there, uh, basically it's one of these situations, you find someone that no longer comes back into human form, uh, no

longer needs to experience, goes on and does other, bigger better things, I mean infinity is a long time to be around, so they have to keep on doing things, but when other beings interact with someone who's graduated from the human experience, the word has it that they're incredibly impressed,but -- it's sort of like you bump into them and say "Wow, you're a very impressive person, where'd you come from?" and the person would say "Well, I'm just so&so, but I, um, I used to be human, but I don't do that anymore" and the other person would say, "A human! you mean, you, you graduated from the human [?], you mean you basically became self realized while

you were human, you became, you became aware of who you were inside the human limited form?" and the person would say, "Yeah, that's what I did," and then the other person would say,

"Well now wait a sec, this is like amazing, like, start in the beginning, we have to know everything like how'd you do this, so like, you were born? alright, so like, then what happened? -- "


[lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....


ART BELL ...like a monkey can suddenly talk --


DR BROWN Yeah, it's a, it's a very, an impressive thing when someone graduates from the human experience, that's what we've, that's what Bob Monroe and their Institute found out

extensively --


[lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....


ART BELL ...a fairly rare occurrence? {Brown: Pardon me?} Fairly rare occurrence?


DR BROWN It doesn't happen as much as it will happen in the future, because when you are in such a limited physical body, that is so cut off from who you were, who you are, uh, it really is tough to fight through it, and a lot of specialized procedures are often used to accelerate that process, remote viewing is one of them, uh, the Monroe Institute offers a variety of others, and in my book, Cosmic Voyage, I actually offer, I also talk about uh, other procedures, meditation

procedures that are very compatible in a mechanical sense, non-belief-oriented sense, such as TM, the TM Siddhis program,which are oriented around literally just the concept of self realization. Understand self realization is simply one thing, it's a very simple thing. It something that a person while in physical form became experientially aware of their other side, the soul, the sub-space side, as much as they're aware of their hands and their feet --

[lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....


ART BELL ...it's like you're talking about a sort of a cosmic speed course --


DR BROWN That's what the human experience basically is.


ART BELL Yes indeed, but I'm, in terms of rising beyond or even approaching graduation, you're speeding these uh, souls, these, toward that uh, toward that end, and have you ever been concerned that you are indulging in unnatural, uh, process?


DR BROWN No, we're learning, and it's not unnatural at all because we're not doing anything that's unnatural, other than learning in the remote viewing sense, to shift the awareness to something that is already there, something that has already been there since the beginning of time, it's just a flavor of information, a sense of data that is coming across, that is mostly ignored except in those intuitive moments. For example: if a woman, with children, any mother will tell you that if something's wrong with her kids, I mean seriously wrong with one of her children, she'll know it {Bell: She'll know it. Yes.}, she'll, will have no ambiguity something's wrong, or something's wrong with a person's spouse, the other person often knows deep in their heart something's going on, and what that is is the sub-space side of life, the, the, the soul, the sub-space being, that aspect, is picking up remote viewing in a sense, and in a very crude way, bludgeoning through all the

electrochemical apparatus that's genetically, that's genetically uh programmed, bludgeoning through that awareness, into the physical electrochemical brain, so that it comes through finally that's something's wrong, and we pick it up as an intuition. What remote viewing is, Scientific Remote Viewing, the version that we use here at the Farsight Institute, is a way of writing down those intuitions in a scientifically controlled fashion --


[lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....


ART BELL Discipline? Discipline would be a word wouldn't it, for that? In other words, a disciplined intuition.


DR BROWN That's a good way of writing, that's a good way of talking about it, uh you might also add to it a, a discipline with uh, a involved set of mechanical features. So it's not that you simply have to be disciplined like an Army Sergeant, but you're following a set of procedures. We know how the -- we've got the bugs worked out of these procedures, in fact, the procedures that we now use at the Farsight Institute, Scientific Remote Viewing, are much more evolved than the early military, uh, version -- everything changes as it proceeds, and I'm a scientist, more than anything else, which means --


ART BELL Right. Well the only thing I was concerned about with understanding of the nature of the soul, is that in essence you're taking, say a 12 year old prodigy and uh,graduating that 12 year old from college and thrusting that 12 year old out into the world from a soul point of view sort of,

and, and that uh, some of your subjects are missing what they should have gone through, now think about that for a moment,we'll break here at the top of the hour, relax, well be right

back, this is radio, we've got lots of time, Doctor Courtney Brown, Professor Brown, my guest, we'll be right back...




ART BELL Good evening. Actually good morning for most of you across the nation, evening for Alaska and Hawaii yet. My guest is Professor Courtney Brown from Emory University, he leads a

team of remote viewers. Remote viewing is a mental procedure that enables a person to extract accurate, descriptive information from distant locations. Remote viewing also works across time, in the sense that a remote viewer can extract information from the past, present or future. Scientific Remote Viewing refers to a set of protocols that are a modernized version of a technique developed and used by the U.S. Military in the 1980's and 90's for espionage. These protocols allow any normal, well balanced individual to remote view with tremendous precision. Scientific studies using multiple remote viewers employing these protocols can yield results that approach one hundred percent accuracy,consistently. Scientific remote viewing has several uh,distinct stages. Each one brings the remote viewer into closer contact with a target. A target is the location, person, or event about which information is desired. In each stage, different types of information are extracted about the target, and the overall result is typically a complete set of

descriptive information, including sketches. In a moment, Professor Brown once again.




ART BELL Alright back now to uh, Professor Brown, who happens to be in the city now opening the Olympics, Atlanta, uh, Doctor Brown you're back on the air. We talked about remote viewing, uh, the nature of the soul, uh, and the last question I recall asking is, are you certain that you are not, in effect, taking people who are supposed to go through more of these "limited

life experiences" and graduating them early...


DR BROWN Well that's an extraordinarily important question. are, we are aware now that most people don't have a few life experiences but many, many lifetimes, or life experiences, and

uh, school is not bad, we all go to school, we shouldn't be superstitious about learning, opening one's eyes does not hurt us, but with that in mind, let me say that, I'm going gonna say now something that is my opinion, all things of course that I'm saying are something that is my opinion but in this particular

thing I wanna emphasize that this is my opinion and that the military remote viewers, uh, as much as I love them all, they're, they've all had their moments of genius and their contribution to this entire field, every single one of them has been great, but in my opinion, the military remote viewers were not well served by the exact method of training and procedures that they went through, because they learned remote viewing in the absence of a broader course in the growth in consciousness, it started be - out as a parlor trick, it ended up as an espionage tool, but, you know before -- you know, in my years of exposure to these people, I have yet to find one that spoke

to me in terms of them understanding what they were actually doing when they were remote viewing, that they were using their soul to extract the data - they, at least in conversations with

me never put the two together and made an understanding that this has a soul, or a sub-space aspect connection, it was always a 'strange new power' --


ART BELL That actually makes sense, and I would expect that's the way the military would approach it, they wouldn't want to get into or even care about, and probably would shy away from,

any discussion of what might seem to be of, uh, a religious nature --


DR BROWN Yes, but the result is, you know, we strip away religion from this discussion and just say, "If it could happen, it's in the realm of science," and what we have to say is, in my personal view that some of the military people were - - uh, well, were, were affected in a, in, in a way that was not uh, always the best, which is regard to the perception was, that I can do this now, it's an ability, I'm different from, better than, capable of doing something other people can't, and then, uh, you know, the normal process of uh, competition within them, egos growing and things like that, this is not, uh, a fault of a personality but, the process itself was not well explained to them, and it's partly the result simply of the fact that we were new and learning the procedures and

understanding the ability in the beginning and these things were, were normal. But, as a consequence of my, of my personal interactions with these people that - I have restructured the

training program completely at the Farsight Institute, not only have we modernized the actual Remote Viewing procedures, but we also imbed the training uh, with lectures, discussions,

presentations for example, uh, with regard to other approaches to consciousness, so that we encourage people not just to learn how to remote view, with great accuracy, but to also pursue

growth in consciousness that leads them in the direction of healthy self realization, in that regards, we have a very close and supportive relationship with the Monroe institute in Faber? Virginia, they use a different type of technology that is oriented toward self realization, and we also support the use of TM, Transcendental Meditation, and the TM Siddhis program,the advanced version of that, which is a mechanical approach we've found it to be very compatible with uh, Scientific Remote

Viewing --


ART BELL If I may, let me stop you -- before we get away from the military aspect {Brown: Right.}, um, I know that you don't want to discuss other people, and I don't think we need to, but

I did interview Major Ed Dames, who was involved in the military program, and uh, is now out, has formed a company called Psi-Tech, and um, what he said to me was very interesting, he said, when we were doing the military remote viewing, we were concentrating on very specific espionage- related military targets, it was very, very disciplined, and, but a funny thing happened along the way: we began to see some other things. For example, he said, we saw looking into the

future, we saw babies dying. Now, we didn't pay attention to it, um, uh, we, it was seen, it was noted, and it was dismissed because it was not of interest to the military, and then he expanded on that after he left the military, and he has since gone back and uh, done more work in that area, but would you expect that would be true, that a lot of the military people saw things that they simply dismissed, they simply, um, erased, as part of the discipline {Brown: Mhmmn.}, to get the target

they were after, yes?


DR BROWN Yeah - Well actually, um, the story that you just said is, is very interesting, and it uh, uh, literally every single one of the military remote viewers uh, has their special mark in history with regard to this whole thing, and, and the story that you just said is very interesting, because, that is exactly what occurred, many things were happening in the sessions when they were doing it, and things were being observed, that they didn't know how to - how to place - for example, they would for example be trying to locate [?], a terrorist, or they would be going after, uh, the location of Mohamar Khadafi, or they would be trying to do some type of operational, uh, thing with regard to Desert Storm, and in the process of doing all of this stuff, some of the remote viewers,

many of the remote viewers, most perhaps -- and uh -- although I do not, uh, I myself was not in the unit, I was not in the military, uh, so, uh, don't, I didn't have personal contact with every one of them, but perhaps all of the remote viewers, did notice things sort of over their sub-space shoulder, over their remote viewing shoulder, light beings, uh, other things happening, things that were happening on the sub-space side of life, and in fact, they were not capable of dealing with that

information, so they dismissed it --

ART BELL The military, the militar, didn't _want_ them to deal with it --


DR BROWN They didn't want them -- they didn't know _how_ to deal with it, it -- remote viewing itself didn't fit into the normal accepted paradigms, uh, and certainly the stuff that

they were getting didn't fit into the normal accepted paradigms, and one of the things that has happened with Scientific Remote Viewing, is that we have changed, at the Farsight Institute we have changed some of the procedures, most of the language, making it more easy to teach, making it simpler, but in the same sense we've expanded the procedures, and, we've expanded the types of information that we get so we explicity in our sessions now have places for, and recording,

uh we explicitly have procedures for recording the things that were dismissed by the early remote viewers, all of the sub- space activity for example, we have explicit places for that information to be recorded, we don't dismiss it any more, I might say just as a vignette on that interesting topic that you raised, is that there was a -- I, I don't really want to talk about uh, personalities, but there's one personality I will mention. There was a brilliant general, two star major general, Albert Stubblebine, who uh, was in charge of the, oh, area under which the remote viewing unit was assigned {Bell: Okay.} in INSCOM, and uh, the, the problem with General Stubblebine from a job perspective, was that he was doing his job, perhaps a little bit too well --

ART BELL Meaning what?


DR BROWN I have been in -- pardon me? Well in the sense that he ran into a lot of problems within the military when his remote viewing teams began to come up with data, results, and

he as the good General started to report it, and some of the data dealt with some of this information that was being discarded, that was being not used, uh, no place for it, not

within the right paradigm, and some of the military higher-ups, uh, looked at General Stubblebine with uh, not, not complete favor, and he ran into some, some professional problems, really

due to no fault of himself, uh, the information he was carrying was a little bit too different for a lot of those people, and so, uh, you know, within any institution there are types of

information that are accepted within that institution, that's not just the military but any institution, and some of the remote viewing data absolutely stretched the military's levels to it's very edges --


ART BELL I bet it did -- I mean, if you were trying to figure out where Saddham Hussein was, and you had a team concentrating on that, and somebody came and talked to you about Adam & Eve -


DR BROWN -- yeah, or while you were remote viewing Saddham Hussein you saw a light being over your shoulder, they'd think you were nuts.


ART BELL That's right.


DR BROWN Uh, but the reality is, life is more complicated than we thought, with our simple, narrow, limited three dimensional plus one 1 time expectations.

ART BELL Believe me, military careers can slow to a crawl over things like that.

DR BROWN Yeah, and, and General Stubblebine was one of those people who took a little bit of flak, and there was, you know, all of these people, every one of them, had their great moments in the history of this development.

ART BELL Um, well that would be true, and probably suffered greatly for it, like most uh, founding groups or fathers.

DR BROWN Well stated.

ART BELL Um, so now you've got a private organization -- Farsight Institute is private, is it?

DR BROWN Right, what we, what I did was, I had, when I wrote Cosmic Voyage, a Scientific Discovery of Extraterrestrials Visiting Earth, that's, that's under the [?] label, it's a Penguin Book, uh, when I wrote that, uh, I was originally going to treat this just as any other book, the only difference between my use of Remote Viewing and the miliitary's was that instead of looking for terrorists or bombing targets or whatever, I used those same procedures, but aimed them up, towards the extraterrestrials, the ETs, the UFO phenomenon, the enigma, and I focused just basically on that. But, when I did it, I had the expectation, as controversial this book would be, and I knew it, I had the expectation I had to walk away from it, start my next book, right after that, just like all academics do, we write one book, we finish it, we go onto our next project. But at the very last stages of, uh, right before the book went into production, it had gone through all of its editorial stuff, it had gone through everything, I had a conference call with, uh, my editor, and uh, the lawyers, the best legal minds available in New York on literary matters {Bell: I'll bet.} and uh, they're the lawyers of Penguin, and there's the conference call. And they said, "Doctor Brown, we have one last thing: you have described to us your procedure, what you went through to get training from some of these military guys. Well, there aren't many of them out there, and uh, you know, what you had to go through, was something that may be difficult for a lot of people, to go through," in terms of finding them and getting things going at least at the time, that I was doing this, it was very difficult for me to get the training, but I finally got it, and, uh, and they said, "and the people that are available for training don't do it the way you would suggest it to be done," now, the whole thing about Science is replicability, that's the fundamental characteristic of science, is you've got something going on the laboratory, you've gotta be able to replicate it --

ART BELL Absolutely.

DR BROWN -- under the exact type of conditions. So they say, "Uh, Doctor Brown, uh, we need an institute, there's got to be an institute for doing this stuff the way you think it should be done, uh, that's the whole clai], I mean, we're gonna put ourselves, this is a major press, Penguin, we're gonna put ourselves on the line and push this book, uh, and uh, don't you think we need an institute?" and that was the lawyers saying this, and then I said, "Well an institute, but I don't have an institute {Bell: laughs}, I just do my research and I go onto my next book," and then there was this, uh, long, pregnant pause, and my editor chimes in and says, "Boy we'd sure like to sign off on this book today, Dr. Brown," and I said, "Oh. Is that it?" So the implication was that if I didn't [?] an institute [?...] there'd be -- so I basically just squeaked out, "Ok, I'll do it," but, you know, I realized what that would mean, that would mean hiring secretaries, I'm just talking about organization -- but I did it, and uh, I'm glad it actually happened that way, so we now have an institute, a regular, full-fledged academic institute where we teach people, anyone who is interested, from scientists to reporters to just plain interested people, uh, how to do the most modernized form of the originally military derived, uh, remote viewing protocols, and we have regular classes, we've had a variety of classes, we've trained so far 31 remote viewers, and I must say, that 28 of these remote viewers have given us written permission to post their results up, or parts of their results up, the results that are uh, understandable and can be presented easily on the Internet, uh, uh, to post these results up on the Internet, and, to date I've got, uh, we've got 11 results, partial results, uh, posted up on the Internet, so people that go to your web page, and then snap over to uh the Farsight Institute web page, you might -- you mentioned my web page -- uh, people that go over to my web page, they can go to a section called the Student's Corner, and they can see 11 results, and all done under totally blind conditions, which is

what we use at the Farsight Institute - Uh, Art - I hope you

ask me one time what that actually means, 'cause that's very

important, your viewers are gonna wanna know, what does this,

how do we know this really works, to know that you have to know

what blind conditions is all about --


ART BELL Doctor, you have Viewers, I have listeners.


DR BROWN Okay. {Bell: laughs} I'll, I'll do it then. What

blind conditions is, that the Farsight Institute only uses

blind conditions. Now what that means is, now get this: we

have a target that we want to send someone to, to perceive, to

accurately describe in minute detail, say, the great wall of

China, or the Eiffel tower, or the assassination of J.F.

Kennedy, anything that you can think of, we can go to. And we

have, uh, that target, but we don't wanna tell the viewer what

the target is.


ART BELL You don't?


DR BROWN No. Because then the viewer's mind, the conscious

mind, is gonna be all activated and everything in memory is

gonna start flooding out, and they'll start saying, oh, I

remember what this is, and so, it'll be more difficult for the

remote viewer. So what we want to do is to give them the

identification of the target without telling them what the

target is. So what we use is two four-digit random numbers.

The reason is, these numbers come from a random number table,

or from a computer program that we use --


ART BELL Alright doctor, we must, uh, this is network, and we

must break here --


DR BROWN I'll describe it right after the break.


ART BELL That's good -- stay right there. Professor Courtney

Brown, author of Cosmic Voyage, is my guest, Remote Viewing the

topic, we'll be right back.




ART BELL My guest is Doctor Courtney Brown, a tenured PhD

professor at Emory University. He runs the Farsight Institute,

a group of remote viewers. It is a fascinating topic. And

we're gonna get back to it in just a moment.




ART BELL All right, now back to Professor Brown. Professor,

if you had not been a tenured uh, PhD, um, at Emory, after

Cosmic Voyage was published, would they have blown you out of

there like a bad dream?


DR BROWN Well that possibly could have happened, but you know,

uh, to give a good story about this, John Mack, a tenured

professor of Psychiatry at Harvard, Pulitzer Prize winning

author, founder of the department of psychiatry at Harvard

Medical School, when he came out a couple years back, year and

a half ago actually, about two years back, with uh, uh, uh, his

book "Abduction," which was about the uh, basically one species

of G- of ETs called Greys -- fascinating book, when he came out

with that, uh Harvard went through an academic inquisition no

less, and that's unheard of these times, where basically they

dragged him through approximately forty closed-door hearings,

lawyers-only type things, where they were trying basically uh,

no-holds-barred to get him removed {Bell: Right.}, now --


ART BELL M-Hmmn. Actually it was a very close call.


DR BROWN It was a very close call, and after a year and a half

of uh, closed door meetings and really, nip and tuck as far as

John Mack was concerned, Pulitzer Prize winning author or not,

he almost lost his job, and what finally happened after a year

and a half, the dean finally put closure on it, and said ah, I

guess this is an academic freedom issue, and, uh, you know uh,

just closed the -- closed the door on it, said this is it,

let's not hear any more about this, John Mack can do whatever

he wants, but by doing that, John Mack actually set out a

principle for all universities {Bell: Ah.}, because by doing

that, he forced Harvard to make a statement saying that people

studying these high, advanced level subjects of consciousness

and extraterrestrials, ETS, UFOs, that this is legitimate

within the range of scientific inquiry. By forcing Harvard to

do it, he saved uh, the careers of an awful lot of other

scientists, because no other university's gonna do something

that, that uh, Harvard finally at long last decided not to do.

Now understand Harvard is, is not known for its innovation.

Harvard basically hires people that are, that have done their

creative work uh, and you know, they, they are, really, often

their creative work has been done elsewhere, and then Harvard

hires them, you know, after they become you know very big --


ART BELL Very conservative.


DR BROWN And in that sense Harvard is very conservative, not

the, the bastion of innovation and creativity as much as they

are the defense of the orthodoxy, and they have a prestige to

defend, and you know the harder, the higher they come, the

taller, the harder they fall, [inaudible] --


ART BELL What about Emory? Have you run into any --


DR BROWN I've run into no problems with Emory, I don't know

how much of it is because of Emory's long standing commitment

to academic freedom, which really is there, or, and how much of

it is due to the fact that uh, my book came out after, right

after John Mack forced Harvard to make that decision

[inaudible] --


ART BELL Alright, let us return now to remote viewing. You

were telling us that in order to insure that there's not a lot

of false information flying about in the brains of these uh,

viewers, they are assigned targets by numbers. Now I can't

understand that, how would a series so -- so make me understand



DR BROWN OK that's fine. So this is what's called blind

conditions. What we have is, we have a target, the Great Wall

of China, the Eiffel Tower, the assassination of JFK, [?]

whatever, and that's our target, that's what we wanna get

information about. Now we don't tell the remote viewer that

this is what the target is. What we do is, we say well let's

go to the computer program or to a table of random numbers and

get two four-digit random numbers. Why two four-digit? Well

it goes back to the old military days, it's a tradition, where

they thought coordinates were needed, geographical coordinates,

latitude and longitude, so that's a leftover from those days

when we have two four-digit random numbers, but they're totally

random, they mean nothing to the conscious mind. And on a

piece of paper, right next to whatever the target may be, uh,

uh, say, say you know, Nagasaki destruction event, we put down

uh, those two four-digit random numbers. Now. We then go over

to the remote viewer, and we say, here is the target, and we

tell the remote viewer those two four-digit random numbers,

say, 7275 5131.


ART BELL There is your target --


DR BROWN And the remote viewer writes those two four-digit

random numbers down. Now. That's _all_ the remote viewer is

given about the target. Now. The physical conscious mind, the

electrochemical brain has no way of knowing what those numbers

mean {Bell: For sure.}, that, that, that they mean the

destruction of Nagasaki or Martians, [?] {Bell: I understand.},

ETs, Greys, President Clinton in the Oval office, [?] St.

Louis, whatever it may be -- has no knowledge of what those

numbers mean. But: the sub-space component of the, of the

remote viewer, you might call it the soul, or some people call

it the unconscious, we have found that the vast other part of

ourselves, the essential being of ourselves, has instant

awareness of all things, including what those numbers

represent. And what we do is we send the remote viewer through

this set of procedures, mechanical procedures, on those

numbers, beginning with those numbers, and the information that

comes across through the soul, through the sub-space aspect,

projected onto the brain, dimmer, foggier, fuzzier, but

nonethless the remote, the remote viewers are trained to

recognize it and to write it down, that information is written

down, and what we do at the end of the end of the session is we

have a complete description of what that target is, and the

remote viewer was never told what the target was, and then at

the end of the session after all the information is down on the

piece of paper, in indelible ink, can't be erased, after all

the information is down we then, the remote viewer says "whew!

That's over. What was that?" and we tell them, that was uh --


ART BELL OK now let's get to the scientific repeatability

aspect of it: can you take Remote Viewer A, and assign them,

uh, Target A in, in one room, and Remote Viewer B, C, D and E,

uh in separate rooms, and assigning them the same target, and

establish roughly the same report?

DR BROWN That's exactly what we do! Except, we don't do it

with two. At the Farsight Institute we typically do it with

eight students at a time, all separated, so they can't see each

other working, they're all separated physically with barriers,

but the point is, we teach them the procedures, and then we

give a target, and then all eight work on the target {Bell:

Right.} in silence, all separated, they can't see each other,

and then at the end of the session, when we say put your pen

down, put your pens down, we then collect everybody's session

up, and then one at a time we put them on the table and

everybody looks at everybody else's session. You can often

hear a pin drop when they look and they say -- you know, you

can always discard your own work, they say - you say, ah I must

have done that by chance, how could I have done that, but when

you see eight other people in the same room coming up with the

same information, it's just awe inspiring.


ART BELL Alright, give me the numbers. Uh, with regard to

your research so far, what percentage of accuracy can you

repeatably demonstrate?


DR BROWN Well, it, it, it varies as you get better at it, so

when you first start it, but, but, I should say this, to start

with, we have not had a single person in our institute, of 32

that have come through, that have not been able to learn it,

and have not been able to do it, every single one has -- can do

it. We know how to work this now, we've got all the bugs

worked out of this. Secondly, information at the end of

training is as good as the military people _ever_ were. But:

the requirement is that the people at the end of training have

a professional monitor, someone to remind them of which

procedure comes next, there to make sure that no mistakes are

made. After the initial week, intensive training that we give,

we have another course, called Farsight Seer, which is the uh,

professionalization course, where even that limitation is

removed because they become monitors themselves, they become,

they become experts, they become professionals, and then we

even have a teacher training course, and we're actively

teaching, we're actively developing a large uh teach -- group

of teachers -- so the point is that a professional, someone

who's gone through the introductory course as well as the

professionalization course {Bell: Yes.}, those people -- and if

we do, everything that we suggest especially, and don't do

anything wrong, we do not have a _single_ unexplained missing

of the target. In the sense that, as long as nothing was

physically done wrong, like a blunder as might be done in say

the introductory parts of training, as long as there's no

physical blunder, uh, no gross mistakes, in the execution of

procedures, uh which is very rare among professionals, we don't

have a single case of anyone completely missing the target. We

know how this thing works.


ART BELL So you're saying repeatably --


DR BROWN Replicability is the bottom line.


ART BELL A hundred percent of the time?


DR BROWN Well, what we're saying is the following: like when

you ride a bicycle, you fall down in the beginning. So do you

say, well is the bicycle gonna be stable 100% of the time, well

in the beginning, you fall down, but you know, look at the

olympic bicyclists, it's a very rare damned -- it's a very rare

moon whenever they fall down off a bicycle, you know they're

good at it -- so the point is, when people do everything that

we say [?], that, that we tell them to do -- you know it may be

in the future that we'll find out that you know, certain

percentages of the targets don't work very well, but the

reality is, when people become professional using this stuff,

we - and they don't make - and there's no gross mistakes being

made in the procedures - uh, we don't have a single case yet

where people have completely gone off target. {Bell: That's

quite a claim.} So we really understand this, and, I must say

that I am a scientist, and all science evolves, so that what we

know now is an improvement over what was going on in the

original military program, and what will go on in ten years and

in twenty years will be an improvement on what we do now. So,

science is constantly evolving. There is no original perfect

set of procedures that [good?] for the rest of time, everything

evolves, and that's why we look at the - at the Farsight

Institute as a real academic institute where research is going

on, where we constantly innovate and do things -- by the way I

should also mention, that we have a medical course that we

anticipate to offer in the beginning of 1997, and uh, the

procedures are being used, very accurately and productively in

hospital settings today. And uh, you know, you never do it if

somebody has broken a leg, if it's a broken leg you just fix it


ART BELL Diagnostics?


DR BROWN But, but for very complicated diagnostics where you

don't have the foggiest reasons, idea of what to do next,

doctors can use it, and actually come up with very, very

important information about what's wrong with people.


ART BELL Really remarkable, alright, let me take you in a sort

of a side direction for just one moment. {Brown: OK, sure.}

Having established what you can do scientifically, and I think

you have established that, um, let me ask you about ethics a

little bit. Um, if I were not an ethical person, and I came to

you and I came, and I went through your course, and I went all

the way through your course and became _very_ good at what I

do, could I not, uh, with my talents, attain great power, great

riches, great everything -- in other words use this, um,

ability, for personal gain -- must I be ethical with it, or uh,

is the very process itself driven uh, to do, to an ethical

boundary, or stays within an ethical boundary, you see what I'm

trying to ask, I'm sure --


DR BROWN We, we, the point is that we truly live in a free

will universe, and the remote viewing procedures are

mechanical, they are not belief oriented, so anything is

possible, including what you just suggested -- with that said,

however, I want to state that at the Farsight Institute we take

particular efforts, very great efforts to explain remote

viewing in the realm of larger growth of consciousness. For

example, we now know that it is literally the sub-space

component of all of us, the sub-space side of us, of our

composite nature, two things put together, our soul, that

actually does the perception. And if you look back at it, what

did the military use it for? -- now this is not a criticism,

this is just, this was their business and they had to do it

this way, but what did they do it for --


ART BELL Wait doctor, the same sort of thing that I'm gonna

ask you about right now, bringing you back down to ground

level. I go through your course. I go to work for some

microchip company. {Brown: Right.} I say look guys, how would

you like to have the latest research, two or three years ahead

of what you're doing, going on in Tokyo right now -- I can give

it to you, I can give it to you, $500,000, a million dollars,

whatever it is, I can give you this technology.


DR BROWN That's already going on. Uh, there is a, a remote

viewer that um, uh, a military remote viewer, Joe McMoneagle,

who's out at the -- who can be -- he often shows up in classes

at the Monroe Institute in Faber Virginia -- uh, he's a natural

psychic, he's not trained, he's a natural psychic and he has an

accuracy rate of about 80% -- but uh, he works for contract for

private companies all the time, and there are, there are a

significant number of patents out there where people hire him,

and some other remote viewers, for technology transfer, but

most of all from off planet and from the future. And uh,

patents are, people are making money on patents with regard to

this stuff -- there's another professor, such as myself, but

this is a full professor at a very prestigious, uh, one of the

most prestigious engineering universities, colleges in the

country, that is uh, getting patent after patent after patent

using a remote viewer, and he has actually tried to show some

of his colleagues how they're getting the information, but the

colleagues just don't wanna listen, they just say, just take

your patent, I don't wanna know how you get it, but you know,

the point is that, he with the remote viewer has found, has,

has found uh, an ET, an ET library, believe it or not, a, a

library, and uh, they're -- works on the level of consciousness

and they're just tapping into it --


[lack of clarity as Brown and Bell both talk]...


ART BELL ...again, the ethics, now, if I go to a company and I

say, look guys, I can steal the latest for you, the key word

there is steal, theft, it is theft, if you're able to remote

view somebody else's technology then assume it for your own,

that, Doctor, is theft.


DR BROWN Yeah -- well you understand that this level of

secrecy that you're talking about being broken only exists

within the limitations of our genetic makeup. Once you break

that, there are no secrets anymore. I'll give you an example -


ART BELL At that plane, yes, but here on earth Doctor, that is



DR BROWN No, on earth now, we've broken it now, on earth, in

the physical level, we're no longer limited by this anymore, we

can remote view anything. So all those secrets are no longer

secrets --


ART BELL No more secrets.


DR BROWN Let me give you an example. In my book, Cosmic

Voyage, there's a chapter, I was monitored by a former retired

high ranking member of the military uh, during the entire

process of writing this book, uh of doing the research, and

this monitor sent me, under completely blind conditions, into

the white house, into the oval office --


ART BELL Oh really...


DR BROWN And I described that session. And it took 25 minutes

for me to go through the procedures, and finally I said to the

monitor, uh, I'm sorry, but the only thing I'm getting is that

I'm in a room, it's round, and I'm standing in front of the

president, President Clinton is here, what am I supposed to do

now? And at that point the, the monitor ended the session, as

that indeed was the target, and he told me afterwards that's

the target, that's end of session, took 25 minutes, and then

the monitor says, yeah we could have done some interesting

things, I could have sent you into the mind of the president,

but you know, being former military types we still have some

respect for the commander in chief <laughs>. But the reality

is, he could have sent me right into the mind of the president

to extract any information that was necessary.


ART BELL Seems to me Doctor, if you can really do that, you

could be killed for that.


DR BROWN Well, no, it's not because of me you see, we're

teaching people how to do this now --


[lack of clarity as Brown and Bell both talk]...


ART BELL You could be killed for that.


DR BROWN Well I have a respect for our president as well, so I

don't do things like that.


ART BELL But maybe not all your students will.


DR BROWN Well actually, to be quite honest, we do teach them

how to enter the minds of people in training, that's part of

the training process, it's {Bell: Really.} called a deep mind

probe, and I just had a student the other day --


ART BELL No fourth amendment problems here eh?


DR BROWN Well, we have to understand science is changing and,

and, you know you could have said, uh, in the old days, you

could have said, well when technology changes does the rest of

the world has to stop, but we now know that when technology

changes, and remote viewing is a technology now, uh, our

physical realm has to adapt, and --


ART BELL Alright now, hold it there, we're gonna break, and we

need one after all that, we'll be right back, Doctor Courtney

Brown is my guest, don't move...




ART BELL My guest is Professor Courtney Brown. He is a

tenured PhD professor at Emory University. He has written a

book called... isn't that terrible? {laughs} It's cosmic -- is

it Cosmic Journey? Cosmic Voyage? It is... a Cosmic trip,

that's for sure. And what we have done, in the last uh, in the

last two hours, is to establish the scientific validity of

remote viewing, the ability to look, uh, at a distant

geographic location, the ability to look at a distant person or

object, the ability to enter their mind, the ability to read

into the future -- see, literally, into the future or the past

-- and without uh, without going through all of uh, the

discussion of the past two hours I will tell you, if you have

been listening, you should be, by now convinced, of the

scientific uh, reality and viability of remote viewing. We

have not yet talked about some of the targets that uh, Doctor

Brown uh, has viewed. That part is coming up. I could not

have done that, ladies and gentlemen, in my view, uh, without

having established the base, the scientific um, repeatable base

of proof for the existence of remote viewing. Having done

that, and I think, having done that, we will indeed begin to

ask about specific targets shortly.




ART BELL Doctor Courtney told us that under scientific

conditions it is possible to take eight trained remote viewers

-- I said eight, in separate rooms, assigning them a target,

not one that they know of, but a number that relates to a

target, or more specifically actually does not, and the eight

remote viewers will uh, go to their target, report the

information, uh, then uh, these eight will be gathered

together, the notes, the information on the target will be

identical, it can be done with trained pros to the point where

it is or can achieve near 100% accuracy. That's scientific,

it's repeatable, and I guess it's real, and it's kind of, it's

kind of frightening, isn't it doctor, uh, for the uninitiated -



DR BROWN Well, for the uninitiated it, it, it could be a

little bit new, and all new things are a little bit surprising,

uh, but but I wanna say just to help clarify something, that

the results necessarily are not, are not necessarily identical

across remote viewers, and that is because the, the personality

of each remote viewer is involved in what they particularly go



ART BELL But isn't the goal to suppress as much of that, uh --


DR BROWN That's right, but let me explain: Every remote viewer

goes to the site and gets aspects of the site that are clearly,

clearly, unambiguously related to that site. But not every

remote viewer goes to the same aspects of the site. For

example, if you're to target the, uh, the blowing up of the 747

that happened couple days ago, then, and you're to send eight

remote viewers there and figure it out, what's going on, uh you

may write the target in such a way that all eight remote

viewers, they'll all get an explosion, they'll all get people

dying, lives, people falling out of the sky, they'll all get a

jetliner blowing up or something like that, some aerial

explosion, but some of them may, if this thing was a missile

for example that blew it up, uh some of them may give you much

more detail about the missile whereas others won't even have

any detail about the missile. Uh if it was a bomb inside the

airliner, some of the remote viewers might actually pick up uh,

how the bomb was actually placed in the, in the jetliner, where

as other remote viewers wouldn't, wouldn't have gotten that

particular information. {Bell: Alright, so that's clear.} So,

so the personality of each remote viewer gets different aspects

(Bell: That's clear.), so that it's not that we're all carbon

copies, also when we do things at the Farsight Institute, we

sometimes put people in separate rooms, but other, but we also

have uh, training where all eight people are in the same room,

but it's a very large room and they're all separated by

barriers, so they can't see each other, so uh, but nonetheless

your description is correct in the sense that right after that

they are separated from each other, and right after that they

come together and uh, review everybody's work. It's really

quite a moving experience for everyone when they first start

seeing that.


ART BELL I brought up the subject of the effects of it, and

somebody sent me a fax here that says, "Knowledge can't be

owned. It's not theft. It's merely the universal database and

access to it."


DR BROWN In fact, getting into some of our targets, uh, ET

related targets, we have to understand that the big difference

between us humans and advanced ETs is, as a rule,

technologically as well as experientially, they are self-

realized, the ETs, they have complete understanding of the

composite physical and [inaudible] --


ART BELL Are you sure they are --


DR BROWN They have no secrets.


ART BELL Are you sure they are -- well there are no, in your

world there are, there are no secrets in it, there are no

longer any secrets, that's a frightening prospect. Um, are you

sure they are ETs? I know many have seen beings of light.

Different beings. Uh, how can you be sure these are really

extraterrestrials in the very purest form of the meaning, they

are living on or have been on other planets in other systems?


DR BROWN Good question. Art, there's no ambiguity about this.

With the exact same procedures that are used to put men and

women's lives at stake on the battlefield -- and the military

had a minimum eighty-five percent accuracy, eighty-five percent

of the time -- that was better by the way than some of their

normal spy stuff, 'cause you know, when you get physical spies

out there, a lot of the physical spies are given disinformation

{Bell: Yes.}, not everything you get is correct, so the remote

viewing data was very competitive, often superior, than the

information they got from their regular ordinary spies. So,

with that same level of accuracy, and above, uh, we've used

this same procedures to target the extraterrestrials, and one

thing I want to tell you and you do not have to believe me,

science is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of

replicability under controlled scientific laboratory



conditions, and, we do not have just me as a remote viewer

doing this. Uh, besides the military folks, the former military

folks, uh, we have thirty one, thirty two remote viewers,

thirty two remote viewers at the Farsight Institute who have

become very proficient at, at uh, at uh, getting information

from physical targets that are just normal, Eiffel Tower,

whatever, uh, using the same procedures on ET related targets,

and getting very, very accurate results in the sense of

compatability. Meaning, if someone goes to Mars and is

supposed to be looking at something life-oriented around Mars

or on Mars, you get all the same people describing the same

thing, uh, using the exact same procedures. Now if the

procedures didn't work, we'd have no business committing men

and women's lives on the fields for this. {Bell: That's right.}

Uh, the procedures do work -- [inaudible]


ART BELL OK here's a hard question, a hard question for you,

on the subject: it is my understanding that the military is

now, or claims, that they have ended their remote viewing

project, correct?


DR BROWN That is correct.


ART BELL If it's so damn effective, then why have they done

that? If it's better than human assets on the ground in many

cases, with regard to intelligence matters, why in the world

would they end the project? Or is the answer, they really have

just ended the public, uh knowledge --


DR BROWN That last part is [inaudible] -- there is, there is

still an operational capability within the military. There are

people still in uniform who are remote viewers, and one in fact

that is a very high ranking military officer. With that said,

I must say that there are three different reasons for the, for

the elimination of the actual unit.


ART BELL Let's hear 'em.


DR BROWN The first is, that the Generals themselves have their

own traditional belief systems that the remote viewing stuff

really goes right against. They're like anybody else.


ART BELL Religious... ?


DR BROWN All types of traditional belief systems {Bell:

Alright. I can buy that.} religious and stuff like that, and

when you start bringing in remote viewing stuff, you start

challenging basically _all_ belief systems, because you're

bringing in vastly new information. {Bell: OK. I can buy

that.} And so some of the Generals have a difficult time with

that. The second reason for it is that politically, remote

viewing is not easy to do, to, to, to, accept on the political

popularity reasons. What, what is the problem is that the,

that the, the American government {Bell: In other words,

getting money for it?}, might not want a scandal. They do not

want people saying, oh this is another way of throwing money

down the drain and the military's investing in psychics, and

{Bell: Yes, OK...} the government wants to avoid things like

that, because it takes too much time to explain it. You're

having me on for over two hours {Bell: Right...}, people are

basically just now getting it right, but in the normal news,

you've got a ten second, thirty second sound bite at most

{Bell: That's right.}, and it's just too difficult to explain,

and the government says, I just can't explain this. {Bell: Well

that's why I hate TV.} So well basically that's the problem,

so the government, the government has eradicated these types of

controversies. The third reason uh, for this is that the

government is now backpedaling a lot with regard to this

program. They're acknowledging the existence of the unit, uh,

but they are very, uh, concerned about what happened to the

members of the unit. The unit was supposed to be very highly

classified. {Bell: Oh? And it's all broken out.} And it's



ART BELL But still doctor, I can't believe they'd stop it --

look our CIA, bless their hearts, they've got the morals of an

alley cat, and if they could get information about what's going

on in Russia or China or whatever, I - I - I'm just absolutely

certain they've still got a program going on somewhere, maybe

not the military one that accounts for your beginnings, but --


DR BROWN There is no training program going on, I know that.

Uh, the only -- there is no training program going on right now

within the miltary. Really they're trying to, they're trying

to distance themselves from what has occurred as the former,

now retired, remote viewers, uh, are, uh a number of them, not

all of them, there were you know, nineteen people that were

trained by, uh, Ingo Swann, the original military group, and

uh, their, you know, the military right now is trying to

backpedal as fast as they can from some of the people that were

in the unit that are now coming out publicly talking about it.

Basically we're talking about breaking security oaths, we're

talking about coming out uh, publicly uh, uh, writing books,

trying to make movies, things like that, on something that was

one of the most highly classified projects ever {Bell: Right.},

and the government's not happy with that, and uh, the military

itself is not, not looking [inaudible section] all this

information coming out from its trusted spies --


ART BELL Then how come, how come Ingo, Major Dames, all the

others, whoever, why are these guys still walking around, why

aren't they --


DR BROWN Well they've actually clamped down on all the others,

they have their own, they have a few Internet outlets, one of

them has almost become what you might consider the former

military's home page {Bell: {laughs}}, uh, you can get to it by

going under Yahoo and looking under, under remote viewing, just

search remote viewing under Yahoo on the Internet, and you'll

get two institutes, one is mine, the Farsight Institute,

actually I can't just say it's mine anymore, there's so many

people working -- and the other is the Controlled Remote

Viewing home page of uh, one of the former military people

{Bell: Right.}, and uh, the whole history of the unit, uh, all

of its bumps and everything, warts and everything, can be found

there. And uh, uh, you know, the government's not very happy

about that. In fact the Controlled Remote Viewing home page,

of this retired unit, was actually decimated once by a uh,

hacker that got into the internet site where it's housed, got

through all the firewalls in fell swoop, went to the home page,

eradicated it without eradicating anyone else's, uh, so badly

that it couldn't be rebuilt, and had to be uploaded originally

again --


ART BELL Yeah the, the Internet may be the biggest enemy of

government secrecy --


DR BROWN [inaudible] anyway, they rebuilt, they rebuilt the

site, uh the actual home page for that remote viewing home

page, and the next day it was eradicated again by the same

hacker who went through yet again more firewalls, and uh, this

time the hacker said, you know, I'll show you, and destroyed

the actual Internet server {Bell: Wow.}, the actual machine

that the, that the site was made on, and then, the hacker so

thoroughly destroyed -- this is a high-level hacker that knows

everything -- so thoroughly destroyed this thing that the

company had to actually go out and buy a new web server for all

of its customers, because the machine was destroyed, I mean it

was a total eradication -- {Bell: That's amazing} -- so you

know, a common run-of-the-mill teenage hacker can't do things

like that, so, the basic bottom line is that --


ART BELL So the answer is, they _are_ after them.


DR BROWN Well they, they haven't gone after the home page

again for that group, the Controlled Remote Viewing home page,

and the best information I've got so far is that they've

basically abandoned the attempt to go after anybody.


ART BELL Alright look, we're gonna talk about specific targets

here shortly doctor, but you mentioned and teased a little bit,

and I did ask you about it the other day, I don't pre-interview

but I talk to you for a few moments, and I couldn't resist

asking about Flight 800. {Brown: Sure.} You have not yet

targeted Flight 800, have you?


DR BROWN No, we haven't. And one thing we do know about

Remote Viewers is that you can perceive virtually anything, but

you only know what you looked at. Like a closet, unless you've

looked inside the closet you simply don't know what's there.

So with regard to Flight 800, uh, it'll be a great target for

the future, but we haven't assigned that to anyone yet.


ART BELL Are you going to do that?


DR BROWN Oh sure, when they least expect it {laughs} when

they, when they're absolutely sure the next target will be the

Eiffel Tower, that's when we'll [snap at them?].


ART BELL Just a quick answer, if you would. {Brown: Sure.}

Um, if you have a group targeting say, Flight 800, would there

be any other remote viewers out there that could know you're

targeting it, you know could, in essence, understand that

you're in the process of targeting something?


DR BROWN Well, that's a fascinating question --


ART BELL And it requires a quick answer, is the answer yes?


DR BROWN Yes -- but the, but the answer that I'll give right

after the break is more fascinating than you can imagine.


ART BELL Alright, that's a good teaser, stay right there,

we'll be right back.




ART BELL Without question, this has been the best, most

comprehensive explanation to date of remote viewing. There's

no question about it. If you would like a copy of this

program, you can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278... you can

call right now. Back now to Doctor Brown, Doctor, continue



DR BROWN Well you had just asked me if it is possible for uh,

another remote viewer to perceive you know, a different remote

viewer doing something {Bell: Targeting, yes.} -- a target --

well there's two fascinating answers to this. First is, when

the U.S. found out that there was a Soviet psychic espionage

unit in existence as well during the cold war, the U.S. team

was given the target, some members of it were given the target,

of literally remote viewing the Soviets. Now remember, the

Soviets had a different set of procedures. {Bell: Right.} They

did not do training, they did, they got the best natural

psychics and coordinated their activities and they developed an

80% accuracy rate. Now, the U.S. team in the Pentagon targeted

the Soviet team, and they came, they sent a remote viewer

there, under highly controlled conditions again, the remote

viewer was not told what the target was [inaudible] just a

target -- and the remote viewer found himself uh, looking at a

conversation between a woman, who turned out to be uh, the high

ranking commander of the Soviet unit, uh having a conversation

with somebody else. Now this woman was a natural psychic mind

you, she didn't [?] the complicated procedures that the U.S.

team did, so she had sort of natural abilities, and one of the

first instances of its type happened during this session. The

woman turned, and looked directly at the spot where the

American remote viewer was located, inside the Kremlin -- or

inside -- you know inside Moscow, wherever the actual location

of the remote viewing person was, the Soviet one. But the

remote viewer, the U.S. remote viewer in the Pentagon then

reported to the monitor, but with considerable surprise, that

he was discovered, that the female actually looked at him,

after he described who she was, uh, uh then the monitor said,

oh this is a national security breach, we have to retract this

immediately, so they ended the session and brought the American

remote viewer immediately back into the Pentagon {Bell: Wow.}

and then the Soviet woman extended her consciousness out --

'cause she was a natural mind you, she didn't need all the

elaborate preparatory stages that the American team needed

{Bell: Came right back at us.} -- she came right back at him

moments later, followed him back, and ended up in the Pentagon

looking at them. And it was at that point that the Soviets

started to bombard, with probes, the U.S. team, and that's when

the psychic warfare took off. Now, in addition to that, uh to

answer your question, uh, one of the scientific discoveries, in

laboratories -- and actually this happened at Stanford Research

Institute, SRI International, Palo Alto, in California, uh

formerly associated with Stanford University, and they had to

break off uh, during the, after the, actually because of the

Vietnam war, students were upset that the university was

accepting so many defense dollars, so that SRI International

had to break off, but, uh, in the research laboratory, Ingo

Swann, who was the original developer of the original military

protocols, was sent to a target. And completely identified the

target and described it and so on. Couple years later, Joe

McMoneagle, one of the natural psychics that was being tested

at SRI International, uh, uh, was sent to the same target,

couple years later. And Joe McMoneagle, who was uh, uh, one of

the military remote viewers, again, he was a natural, not one

of the trained remote viewers, he was one of the natural remote

viewers, uh, he was sent to the same target in the laboratory,

in the laboratory at Stanford Research Institute, and started

to describe the exact same target. And then at near the end of

the session he said, "But there's one thing that's odd. Uh,

over my shoulder, behind me, uh, Ingo Swann is standing there."

{Bell: Oh...! {laughs}} So what actually happened was, you see

when you remote view, it's not an out of body experience, but

some aspect of yourself sort of materializes or becomes part of

the scene, and another remote viewer can perceive it, so that

once you remote view something, you actually become part of the

history of that spot, for example [inaudible]--


ART BELL [inaudible] -- in effect, remains there --


DR BROWN -- it remains there, for, forever. {Bell: Wow.} In

my book I was given, in my book, Cosmic Voyage, as a uh, as a,

what they call a calibration target, uh just to check on the,

it's a verifiable target just to check on your use of the

procedures, I was given the target, under totally blind

conditions again, the Battle of Gettysburg. And you know,

after doing the procedures I did end up at the Battle of

Gettysburg and describing it and even identifying it at the end

of the session, this is the Battle of Gettysburg, it was a

horrendous scene, it was very emotional [?], I never saw so

much, so much uh, life ended --


ART BELL Don't you come out of them, don't you come out of

them drained? I mean how can you go through the Battle of

Gettysburg, seeing it, feeling it --


DR BROWN That often does happen. Uh, some of our remote

viewers go through a couple sessions, uh three or four sessions

a week, and a couple -- some of them go through one a week --

depending on the nature of the session. If the target is the

Eiffel Tower, there's not much draining there. But in that

case for example, in the Battle of Gettysburg, that was really

quite an experience for me, to see that many people kill

themselves, and uh, if some other remote viewer were to go to

the Battle of Gettysburg, and to poke around long enough,

they'd eventually find me. Meaning, they'd see something,

they'd call it a spir -- some sub-space being {Bell:

Fascinating.}, hovering above the battle --


ART BELL I'm with you doctor, listen though, to me for a

second, while I ask this, doesn't this go back to our

discussion of the nature of time?


DR BROWN Well, this is a fascinating subject. We now know

that time in reality does not exist. Let me explain.


ART BELL Well that would seem to validate it, is what I was



DR BROWN Yeah but there's more to it, and you will be shocked

when you hear this, because when I heard it, it shook me to my,

to my absolute boots: the problem is the following: we found

out that time really doesn't exist. What we have when we're in

this three plus one dimensional world, in these physical

bodies, what we have is not time, what we have is the

limitation of perception. When we're looking with our eyes,

it's as if we're looking out the window of a fast-moving train.

And everything that blurs past the window we see, but in a

moment it's gone, and just because a train passes by a tree,

and you can momentarily see it [?] you can't see it anymore, it

doesn't mean that the tree doesn't still exist. What we found

is that there's no experiential difference at all when you

remote view something that's in the past, present or future.

It's as if it's all in the here and now. And what we now know

is that since time really doesn't exist, the only thing that

exists is a limitation of our perception so we can only see

instantaneously what's occurring in the now {Bell: Gotcha.},

what we really have is a situation in which the past still

exists. It never went away. Our limitation of perception

limited our ability to see it, but it's still there, and the

most amazing thing about this, when it hit me, when I realized

after the first time I said, "Oh my lord -- that means the

holocaust is still going on. Everything that was bad,

everything that was good, still exists. It's not gone

anywhere, we just can't see it. Everything that's ever

happened, and ever _will_ happen, is in the here and the now.

The only thing that's different is that we can't perceive it

unless we use specialized procedures that allow our, our soul

to get that information about what's in the here and now in the

past, in the present, and the future, to our physical

electrochemical minds, our limitation of perception is the only

thing that's stopping our perception that the past, present and

the future all exist -- that means with the future can perceive

the past, and it is possible for the past, present and the

future to interact {Bell: Sure.} and this is another

interesting lesson to learn: if you have some of your listeners

out there who have seen flying saucers, UFOs, ETs, and they saw

them in the sky and felt fear perhaps, they should discard that

fear, because in very great reality, you never know what you're

looking at. Who's flying that saucer? {Bell: That's true.}

We now know that there are, there are extraterrestrials, truly,

[?] species --


[inaudible as Bell and Brown both talk]


ART BELL And "when" are they, I was going to say --


DR BROWN [inaudible]... some of them are future humans. Well

the point is --


ART BELL Doctor I've got to ask you about something, if I

don't uh, my fax machine will burn up, everybody asks you, and

it's gotta be _the_ question, and you have to have targeted it

I hope, "Hi Art, can you ask the Doctor please, if Oswald was

the lone gunman?"


DR BROWN Oh. Well. Let me say... I'm going to give you an

answer that you're not gonna be satisfied with, but I'm gonna

give it to you anyway. We have targeted the, uh, assassination

of JFK, for sure. But we have not made a project out of it,

which would answer that question. We send trainees there

regularly, uh, and we do in fact get -- in fact, one of the,

one of the sessions, uh of a trainee, doing the JFK

assassination, is up on our web page {Bell: Is is?}, yeah, so

you can actually go to it, I forget which -- we only have

results for eleven people up there right now, but by the end of

the summer we'll have over thirty up there. We're trying to get

the results up as fast as we're, as manpower allows. But we got

eleven, but one of them near the end, I think it's eleven or

ten, or something, is the JFK assassination, and the trainee

was not sent to all the different aspects of the target, that

trainee was sent for example to just the JFK assassination, all

the basics, and they got, they got the horror, they got all the

details, the person in the car, and the metallic vehicle

moving, the whole thing -- other viewers have targeted it and

have actually followed bullets, and actually got to it and

figured out what it was during the target, during the session

in fact it was so powerful, but to answer the question Art of

whether Oswald was the sole gunman requires a project with

multiple remote viewers, professional remote viewers, not

trainees, but professionals focusing on just that one target.

And there are so many important projects that are with us right

now we haven't had a chance to do that one. And uh, but we do

have lots of trainees go to that target, and it's a very

interesting target, uh, and some of the results [?] be found on

the Internet as we speak.


ART BELL So they - do they -- ok, alright, and there could be

further news.


DR BROWN Uh, we could resolve that, if we had the manpower to

just focus just on that, we could resolve that.


ART BELL Alright. Um, "Please ask Mr. Brown if he agrees with

Ed Dames" -- let me tell you what Ed Dames said. Uh, two major

things, uh, professor, one: that he saw massive numbers of

babies dying, uh, and the second: that he saw massive problems

for life forms here on earth due to the jet stream literally

coming down "on deck," producing tremendous winds on earth.

These are things that uh, he is, he's certain of. Um, have

your viewers seen anything that would suggest the same sort of



DR BROWN Well, let me say one thing. Uh, you know {sighs},

it's very important for me to differentiate myself and what

we're doing here at the Farsight Institute and what other

people are doing. Because people can only speak for

themselves. {Bell: Understood.} And, and with regard to what

other remote viewers have, have done, understand that, that our

procedures that we have used, that we are now using and

teaching at the Farsight Institute, have evolved from the

original military procedures, and that uh, while the

information can be gotten -- uh, and there's nothing _wrong_

with the military procedures, uh, just that there's been

innovation from that -- and um, and I feel it's very important

for your listeners to understand that uh, if I say, no we

haven't seen something, or, something else, that doesn't mean -



ART BELL That it wasn't seen.


DR BROWN That -- you know you, it's like closet, you only look

at what you see, you only see what you've looked at, and for

some of these things that you've mentioned that other remote

viewers have seen, uh, may differ from what we get, in part

because we have not looked at certain things, and in also part

because we're not doing things... quite as they were doing

them, or still are doing them sometimes, and uh, we're doing

different procedures, and time will tell, uh, the, with regard

to our, you know, our changes, our evolutionary changes in the

procedures, whether it's accuracy or whether it's -- whatever -

- but in regard to the changes that you're talking about, those

particular changes {Bell: Yes, yes.} -- not commenting on that

particular person's work, but, just commenting about earth

changes {Bell: Yes.} -- uh, so I'm not saying, I'm not

comparing what I'm saying now to that person {Bell: OK.}, I'm

just saying, you've asked me about earth changes {Bell: Yes.}

and you can make the comparison yourself {Bell: Go, go ahead.}.

However you want. {Bell: Indeed.} There definitely are

climactic differences, changes that are coming. Uh, we are --

and I write about these, in my book, Cosmic Voyage, in quite

detail -- uh, whether they're involved with the jet stream

changing or something else, um, you know, those are, those are

things that I'm, uh, those are details that we've not looked at

{Bell: Alright, but --} -- but the point is, that the climactic

changes that are coming are not just climate, in the terms of

global warming, ozone stuff and things like that, but the

fundamental driver of this whole thing is our population on the

planet, and in the book Cosmic Voyage, I [?] -- report remote

viewing, extensive remote viewing {Bell: Yes.} that goes as

far as 400 years out in the future, and what we do now, this

may sound strange, but it's true: the future is not

deterministic. It's not set in stone. It's probablistic. Now

what this exactly means we're not sure, but we do know that the

future can change. That's why we have the future, future

beings, say, yourself, you could be looking at a flying saucer

and not realize that a future version of yourself is actually

the pilot, so how could you be afraid of yourself? -- but the

point is, tgat the future actually can interact with the past,

and the timeline can change. {Bell: Alright --} What I'm gonna

say is we have seen some dramatic changes on the planet {Bell:

Like what?} -- that are very -- well, if you go out, if you go

out thirty, forty years, you start seeing, uh, population

problems, really being very severe. And uh --


ART BELL As in, as in diminishing?


DR BROWN No, in the sense that the population's still growing,

but you're running out of food, you're getting starvation in

various places -- by the time you get to the year 2075, which

is less than 100 years away, I mean you're not talking very far

actually {Bell: That's right.}, you're talking when your, when

your children and grandchildren are running around and having

you, that, their robust time {Bell: Yes.}, you start entering a

Mad Max scenario, and you start, it's quite clear at this point

that the civilization has to hunker down and go into

underground shelters --


ART BELL Anar -- underground shelters?


DR BROWN Yeah, the population comes apart, the political

systems fall apart, there are roving gangs on the surface, the

population basically survives in underground bunkers, um, very

large encampments, and uh, and it's not everybody gets to go in

the bunkers, most people slug it out on the surface, then you

go out to two-hundred fifty years, you find the only

inhabitants are the people in the underground bunkers, and uh,

the rest of the world is barren, basically, and if you go out

as far as three hundred years, you start to see that the earth

is being terraformed again by humans, slowly coming out of the

bunkers, and you go out four hundred years you see sort of a

garden of Eden, the humans are much wiser, much smarter, much

more careful about their environment, and very carefully

putting greenhouses all over the place, in the sense of re-

terraforming and bursting the whole planet into life. I have

not gone out further than four hundred years. Robert Monroe at

the Monroe Institute, when he was still alive, he and some

others had gone out as far as a thousand years, and they found

a completely reborn planet, I mean completely reborn, robust

and very wise humans that are completely reoriented with regard

to their role as not users and abusers of the planet, but

caretakers. Uh, so we are going through a shift. Humanity

does not get wiped out, but we have some hard times ahead --


ART BELL Well excuse me if I say, holy smokes -- Doctor, hold

on, we need to get to the phones, and we'll do that next hour

if you're up for it --


DR BROWN I'm up for it, and we should also get to the ETs, the

book Cosmic Voyage is all about those, [?] bottom line of the

whole thing --


ART BELL Oh believe me, we will, and if you knew how much what

you just said sounds like what Major Dames said... I guess

you'd probably start digging. I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.




ART BELL Professor Courtney Brown is my guest. He heads the

Farsight Institute. He is a tenured uh, PhD Professor at Emory

University and he is a remote viewer. And in a moment, we're

going to talk about the others.




ART BELL Alright. Doctor, two fast questions if I might.

One, could ghosts, or what we think of as ghosts, actually be

remote viewers?


DR BROWN {Laughs} Actually -- actually that's -- uh, you

could, they could be misperceived as remote viewers. The point

is that, ghosts are just people without physical bodies, and

uh, you know, a remote viewer, their, their consciousness, the

presence of a remote viewer, can be perceived by a very

sensitive person -- normally humans, ninety-nine percent of the

time plus, are not aware that you're remote viewing them. That

is not the same with ETs. Um, most ETs like Greys and others,

they know from the get-go that you're going. They know you're

coming before you're even going there.


ART BELL We're just, we're just about to get to the ETs. But

before we do, one last question, and that is: What would happen

Doctor, if during a remote viewing session, you died?


DR BROWN Well uh, what would happen if you, like you had a

heart attack or something like that?

ART BELL Yeah. Died.


DR BROWN Well nothing would happen. Uh, you -- it's not an

out of body experience, so you're not departing the body

anyway, uh, what would happen if the person physically died is

that their sub-space aspect, just like any death, would

disconnect from the physical body, and they would look back at

the physical body, sort of like in the Whoopi Goldberg movie

"Ghost," very much like that, no quite literally, it's very

much like that, we've seen that happen. You look at a lot of

deaths when we do remote viewing because a lot of interesting

events have death in it.


ART BELL Indeed. Dramatic, traumatic moments. Alright, you -



DR BROWN If I could just interject one thing, just before the

break, uh, you made a comment, that uh, that might frighten

some people, thinking that, you know, like, disaster is

imminent, or like uh, should we start digging. And I want to

say that I have no indication of anything like that, if

anything I have you know, the indication that the changes that

are going to happen are going to be gradual, and that uh, you

know, the very near term future for humans on this planet is,

this is one of the most exciting times to be alive, as you'll

see when we talk more about the ETs and so on like that --


ART BELL Indeed Doctor, but you did say our children's



DR BROWN Well the future that far out is, is, very difficult,

and I also mentioned that it was probablistic, meaning [?] one

that we see, but for reasons that we don't completely

understand, it is possible for the timeline to change, I'm

hoping for the best.


ART BELL I understand. Alright. ETs. You, you did make a

serious professional project of Mars, didn't you.


DR BROWN Well I studied two ET species. Remember, with remote

viewing, you can perceive anything, but you only know, you only

know what you looked at. There may be many other ET species,

uh, some of which may be interacting with humans, but I only

know -- in _detail_ -- about two. And those two species are a

species called the Greys, uh, there's written, been written

extensively by uh, about by Whitley Streiber, as well as John

Mack, David Jacobs, professor of History at uh, Temple

University (Bell: I've interviwed every one of them.} -- OK,

and uh, Martians. Now, let me tell you something about

Martians. If I had wanted to ruin my professional career by

writing a book about ETs, uh, and dream up something about a

species, and to earn $10,000 from a book {laughs} and ruin my

professional career and the whole thing, if I'd wanted to do

something like that, to write a book of fiction and try to sell

it as fact -- which I have _not_ done, Cosmic Voyage _is_ a

book of fact -- but if I had _wanted_ to write a book of

fiction and try to sell it as fact, I _never_ would have

mentioned anything about Mars. It's too much like Ray

Bradbury. It's too much like H.G. Wells. It's just too far-

fetched -- the reality is, however, I'm a scientist, and I'm

committed to science more than I'm committed to anything else,

and a scientist who's worth his weight, his or her weight in

salt, must report exactly what the scientific experiments

result, and the reality is, we live not alone in our own solar

sys -- in our, in our universe, in this galaxy, or, very

surprisingly, even in our own solar system. Let me tell you

the story about Mars.


ART BELL Please.


DR BROWN Long ago, at the time when dinosaurs roamed on Earth,

there was an ancient Martian civilization. We are very close

to understanding that fact. The end of this year, in just a

few months, two Martian probes will be sent, from -- by NASA,

to Mars, they will be arriving in the middle of next year, and,

you know, more of the details of all of the remains of the

ruins on Mars will come out into the public light soon. But,

let me say this: the Martians of long ago experienced a

planetary holocaust _not_ of their own making. They were

rescued. We now know that wherever Beings are, they organize

themselves. You put people in an elevator long enough, they'll

eventually figure out how to, how to organize themselves, who's

gonna push the buttons first or whatever {Bell: Yeah.} -- the

point is, that the Beings in our galaxy have organized. And

there is something called, that we call, the Galactic

Federation, there is an actual Galactic organization. When the

Martians, they had a civilization that technologically was

pretty similar to the ancient Egyptians, three thousand years

ago, the pyramid Egyptians. They did not have high-technology,

but they had a planetary holocaust that wiped out their

civilization, but before they were wiped out, they had a rescue

group come in. A group that was sanctioned by this Galactic

Federation to go in and basically rescue the Martians. They

were a group of Greys, [many?] the Beings that are involved in

the so-called abduction phenomenon, that you hear so much about

in the literature, and John Mack has written extensively about

that in his book -- and these Greys, a rescue unit of these

Greys, were actually sent in to rescue, we don't know how many

-- all? most? many? -- we don't know -- but, very many many

Martians were rescued. They just basically packed up and --

now you have to understand something about the Greys --


ART BELL Taken off-planet?


DR BROWN Yes, they have an ability, the Greys have an ability

to move their ships through time, as easily as space. They

have a technological ability to do this. We already have a

remote viewing ability to do this, and it's only a matter of

years before our scientists in our laboratories, our

physicists, understand the physics of why we can do that --

well, once you understand the physics, it's only a matter of

time before you have gizmos that can do this as well. The

Greys have those gizmos, and they basically can go through a

billion years of time like we walk across the street. They

brought many, most, all, we don't know how many, but lots of

those Martians up to the present time period, actually about a

decade, decade and a half, twenty years ago, they brought them

up -- where did they bring them? Back to Mars. They are now

awakened in underground caverns in Mars -- inside, not on the

surface. They are happy to have been rescued. They are ticked

off that they happened to have been rescued in the particular

manner, meaning, they would love to have been brought to Earth,

say a hundred and fifty years ago, they'd be running this

planet by now, but the problem is, right now they're on

basically a dead world that has no future for them. They must

leave. The Greys have bootstrapped their technology, so that

they have about a hundred and fifty year technological

advantage over us humans. They have an ability to have fast

flying saucers, fast ET ships, that go between Mars and Earth,

for shuttle runs, to get supplies and things like that. They

do not have interstellar, nor do they have inter-time

capabilities on the level that the Greys have. So the Martians

have no choice. They're between a rock and a hard place. They

have got to leave Mars, they must come here. And, this planet

is fully populated with an aggressive, hostile, human species

that has movies about invasions from Mars, and the Martians

themselves are terrified. They don't know -- they're stuck

between a rock and a hard place, they are _not_ interested in

conquering, they just need to be rescued.


ART BELL So they're "IN" a rock and a hard place.


DR BROWN They're "in" a rock and a hard place, and the remote

viewing results on this are absolutely unequivocable.


ART BELL Alright, well alright, what can you tell us about the

Martians themselves? What are --


DR BROWN Well they're humanoid, just like us now, uh, there

are some Martians on Earth. We actually have located one base

of theirs.


ART BELL You have?


DR BROWN It's a, it's a processing base. And in the book

Cosmic Voyage, I have actually described where that base is.

It's underneath a mountain outside of Santa Fe, called Santa Fe

Baldy, and it's underneath that mountain, there's a base. Now

mind you, that the Martians are not interested in warfare,

they're interested in defense, and their only major defense is

clandestine activity. They're hiding. And the real reason is,

they have got to get to a point where humans openly want to

both discuss things with them, talk to them, and say, you

know, can we help, offer a helping hand. We now know for a

fact that the rest of the galaxy is looking. This is the

biggest spectator sport in the galaxy, to figure out what

humans are going to do when they finally take their heads out

of the sand like the proverbial ostrich, look up and say,

"Alright, alright, alright, you've been flying under our noses

for long enough, we admit, we are not alone in this universe,

galaxy, or even our own solar system, you exist out there, let

us talk." Are the humans going to freak out and send missiles?

{Bell: [inaudible]} "My lord, we have Martians, let's bomb

them." Or, are we going to say, with compassion, "We hear you

have troubles. Uh, can we help?" {Bell: {laughs}} That's what

the galaxy is actually looking to see if we will respond. Are

we going to be mature participants in what we now know is a

robust galactic community of life, or are we going to stay in

the daycare camp of the galaxy, and remain primitive?


ART BELL We're gonna fill 'em full of lead, Doctor.


DR BROWN I have different remote viewing results than that --


ART BELL Well I hope, I hope you're right.


DR BROWN [inaudible] exciting time to live.


ART BELL Listen, it must be 12 fingers down from their point

of view on ID4.


DR BROWN Oh yeah, but you know, Independence Day was a really

fun movie, I enjoyed watching it. You know why it was so

great? It's not really realistic. We're not being invaded.

But uh, it's very useful from a very important sense. There is

an underlying sense, tremendous sense, with regard to the human

populace, with regard to the ETs. Most everybody realizes

there's something out there. And the government -- and I'll

explain why, I explain it in detail in the book, Cosmic Voyage


DR OTHA WINGO74201,35252 200-18186 -- but the government has had a very difficult time getting to

the point where it can explain things to people. The reality

is however, what good does Independence Day, the movie, do? It

gets all of that fear out onto the surface. It's like your

therapist telling you to go over and punch that couch. What

happens with Independence Day? The worst of our fears comes

out, and we can just let it vent. The idea of an invasion from

outside. And, what also happens is, something very useful.

What's the human response? Well, Will Smith, remember what he

does, he, he fights with, in a, in a fighter, a jet fighter

{Bell: Well I don't wanna get away from --} where an ET -- he

punches one in the nose {Bell: Right --} -- and drags it across

the desert in an absolutely fearless sense. In the sense, he,

ID4 is valuable for the human psyche because humans are not

passive in it, we fight back, and so on {Bell: Right.}, so the

reality is, we're not being invaded so we don't need to fight,

but there, the good part of ID4, of uh, Independence Day, the

movie, is it, is it portrays humans in a non-passive way so

that we don't feel helpless anymore, and in the same sense, it

uh, it gets us to vent all of that fear, get it out like a

cathartic release so that we can get on to the reality, which

is uh, much more complicated.


ART BELL Um, if I were to see a Martian, one that is here on

Earth now --


DR BROWN You may have already done that.


ART BELL Well, that was my question. Would I --


DR BROWN You probably would not know the difference. There

are various genetic strains of Martians. Some of them look

variously different than us. But they're all humanoid, and

some of the Martians are very, very close. The closest

connection that you might find to the largest genetic strain,

the largest group of Martians, would be the Native American

community. Uh, they're more like Native American Indian

orientation. Uh, not Indian-Indian, but you know, Native

American type orientation. {Bell: Yes.} That's the closest

you can get to the largest group. But they have a variety of

different genetic strains just like we do,

that have uh, various, various differences, we have to get over

the idea of uh, of uh, racism being the thing that divides our

society, and realize that the future is going to be species-

ism, species-ism, so we have to understand that we are going to

be one species in a large group of species --


ART BELL Doctor, do they know who they are?


DR BROWN Yes, absolutely, they know who they are, they're

trying desperately to hide from us, because they know they have

to come here, they don't wanna make us as enemies, they gotta

beg their way in here -- on the other hand it's not so many

Martians that we're gonna have any population problem -- the

other thing is, you must understand --


ART BELL Important question: how many are there?


DR BROWN We don't know the exact number, but there are many.

Uh, but it's not gonna cause a population problem, it's sort of

[inaudible] --


ART BELL We have five billion plus on our planet. Are we

talking, tens of thousands, millions --


DR BROWN We're probably talking enough to populate a, a

reasonable city.


ART BELL That's a small number, really.


DR BROWN We're talking, we're talking maybe a few million. We

don't have hard numbers on this. But we're definitely not

talking a billion.


ART BELL Alright.


DR BROWN We're talking, we're talking no major change in terms

of, in terms of numbers, but we are talking _major_ change in

terms of our society recognizing that we're not alone, that we

even have near neighbors. Now the other thing is, that you may

say, what is the incentive, why should we help them? People

have actually said to me, "You know forget the altruism of us

having a good name in the galaxy. Why should we help anybody?

I mean we had trouble accepting Cambodian and Vietnamese

refugees, at the end of the Indo-China war, at the end of the

Vietnam War -- uh, why should we help Martians of all people?"

Uh, the reality is that even if you don't buy the altruistic

argument, that we have to participate in the galaxy of life and

help others as we have been helped, we now know that we've been

helped countless times -- but even if you don't buy that, there

are selfish reasons why we should do that. Generals -- think -

- [?] go back to the military. What do Generals hate most?

Hate most? And that is, a battlefield surprise. The last

thing they want is new technology to appear on the battlefield

unannounced. {Bell: You bet.} Now listen. We have Martians

out there with about a hundred and fifty year technological

advantage over us, we, they are -- the Martians themselves are

in desperate -- you have no idea how desperate conditions they

are living under right now -- they need to get off that

essentially dead world that has no future for them at all --

now what would happen if the rest of the human race stays blind

and says "No, we're gonna keep our heads into the sand like

that proverbial sand and never lift it up," but somebody like

Saddam Hussein for example buys a cheap radio telescope and

beams it in their direction and says "Hey! You want a planet,

you want a place to land, hey you like desert? We got _lots_

of desert. Just come on over here, you can stay with us, we

got lots of empty room. Uh, the only payment we ask for is,

why don't you give us a couple of those ships?" _One_ of those

ships would have completely reversed the course of Desert

Storm. The Iraqi's could not only have taken Kuwait with

impunity, but also Saudi Arabia and Turkey and any other place

they want -- Generals don't like that scenario, you can be

guaranteed the U.S. Military, when it gets to that time, in the

_not_ distant future, the U.S. Military's gonna be putting

pressure on the President, saying, "Hey look Mr. President, I

know this may be a political thing for you, but as far as we're

concerned, this is men and women's lives at stake, if there are

Martians out there, get those ships into Nevada, get them into

Arizona, get them under NATO command, get those things under UN

command, United Nations command, let's not have high technology

just roaming about for a place to land, let's get those things

down here and get those Martians in through proper immigration

processes" -- I have to say one more thing: Art: in the

processing center underneath Santa Fe Baldy in New Mexico, the

Martian base, there's a nursery. There are nurseries elsewhere

on the planet as well.


ART BELL Nurseries, oh my god -- hold it right --


[inaudible as Bell and Brown both talk]


ART BELL Doctor, Doctor you must hold. It's a good

cliffhanger anyway. Stay right where you are.


DR BROWN I'll be here.




My guest is Professor Courtney Brown. Doctor Brown is a

tenured PhD Professor at Emory University. He is a remote

viewer. He runs the Farsight Institute. And if the kind of

thing that uh, we are now discussing scares you, turn your

radio off. Because it's getting uh, it's getting to be very,

very interesting. And we'll get back to it in just a moment.




ART BELL Alright back now to Professor Brown. Professor, um,

the -- what uh, what killed their planet?


DR BROWN Oh. Mars? That's a fascinating story. It was not

of their -- it was not an environmental problem like what we're

doing with our planet, or basically what happened to the Greys

and their own homeworld, we visited there as well -- uh, what

happened there is there was a outside celestial body that

passed by, um, apparently it got very close, um, very, it

dipped right into the atmosphere, and caused a uh, atmospheric

disruption, uh, that caused climactic changes. Uh, it

apparently didn't impact on the planet, it apparently passed

by, but whipped right through the planet, it was a very large

asteroid, and uh, what happened was it uh, caused atmospheric

disruption that uh, Mars didn't have a sufficiently large,

sufficiently high gravity to dampen down that, those

disruptions, and the atmosphere started to vibrate, and when it

got a little higher off the planet it started to experience a

situation where much of it was carried by some of the solar

wind, and uh, then the climate started to change very rapidly,

over a matter of a few months, um, and more uh, place became

you know, very destroyed, very upsetting, and a rescue team had

to be sent basically in. It was a aster -- it was an

interplanetary problem that occurred, it was not something due

to the Martians themselves.


ART BELL Alright. The Martians are here. {Brown: Yeah.} Now

this is, uh, this is, I want a serious answer to this question,

if I can get it -- ah, there are, we have two choices

apparently, to accept them, and allow them to in effect uh,

immigrate and come above ground as they apparently want to do,

a -- according to you, or, to reject them, fight them, to react

as humans so frequently do, violently: if that is the case, uh

would they, like a cornered animal, fight?


DR BROWN I -- I don't think so, they don't have anything in

their makeup to, they're not an aggressive hostile species, uh,

they're so desperate right now there'd be no benefit for them

to do something like that.


ART BELL Well there is a modern expression about desperate

people doing desperate things.


DR BROWN On the other hand, your question raises a good point,

and uh, it's probably one of the things that the Generals are

going to be talking to the President about, saying "Look, we

don't want a battle on our hands, if they're desperate let's

resolve this thing peacefully, 'cause if they need to get out

of there and their only option is suicide, then let's resolve

this and help them." But we have to understand there's

something else. There are -- uh, we now know, and I've written

about it, you know all the things that I'm writing, talking

about briefly here are in _detail_ in the book Cosmic Voyage,

it's available in all the major bookstores, if they're sold out

they'll order it, so you know, if your listeners are wanting to

get the rest, of the meat and pot -- the meat that goes on

these bones, it's there, you don't have to wait to get it. And

the reality is that, that, when it comes to Martians there are

-- I mentioned one base, it's a processing base, underneath

Santa Fe Baldy outside of Santa Fe inside a National Forest,

New Mexico. But there are other places on the surface where

villages live, and they're basically mistaken as being thought

that they're just sort of Native, uh you know, you know, Native

American, or actually not American, but South American, indian

stock and things like that, but the point is, uh that they're

living a clandestine life because of the nature of their

existence, and -- but you have to understand, for example,

inside the base underneath Santa Fe Baldy, right here in the

United States, in New Mexico, there is a nursery, and this is

very typical about the nurseries that exist. There is a

nursery where moms are taking care of kids. Now, you have to

understand, a lot of those kids were born in that nursery, they

were born here. That means, face the facts, we have a

constitution, the reality is, some of those kids are American

citizens. And their parents have legal rights for expedited

green card status. So we have some real reasons for having uh,

legal reasons for having a desire to lift our heads up out of

that sand like the proverbial ostrich and start saying, not

only are we not alone, but some of them are us, and you know,

they don't need warheads, what they need is passports.


ART BELL Is there a way, is there a way to delineate um, in

any way at all between somebody of Martian origin, somebody of

Earthly origin?


DR BROWN It's as easy to do that as it is to know the

difference between an African and a Swede. But you can

nonetheless find black Swedes. And you have to, you know you

have to understand that if people want to keep themselves

hidden, uh, a little makeup, some hats, some glasses go a long

way. But the point is, yes, when we actually do start

interacting with Martians we will notice some differences.

Some, less than others. But with some strains there's gonna be

you know, significant differences. The reality is, they are

not carbon copies of humans. But they're interesting.


ART BELL W -- well, give me an example, if you know of one, uh

or if you're willing to tell of one, of a difference that would

be obvious if exposed.


DR BROWN Well uh, when I say this, understand what I said

early on in the show. What is the remote viewing image like?

It's foggier, it's fuzzier, shiftier, you don't get high

resolution images in remote viewing. {Bell: Right.} They're

shifting, uh low resolution foggy images. So, with remote

viewing it's not ever going to be as good as like a TV camera.

So the reality is that anything I say may be different when --

and, and, may be different in detail -- when we actually start

interacting with these Beings and, and uh, the veil comes off

completely. Uh but, uh, in the old days when they were on

Mars, the, they were clearly thinner, wispier, weaker,

physically weaker Beings. They didn't have as much gravity to

deal with, they were much different. Now they seem to be, uh

especially the surf -- the ones that are living on the surface,

seem to be thicker, heavier, Indian-type stock, you would very

easily confuse them if you were going through Latin America,

with uh, with Indians in the local neighborhood. {Bell: OK.}

On the other hand, there seems to be, in the base underneath

Santa Fe Baldy, they seem to be taller, thinner, lighter

skinned, and uh, we're, we're not completely sure the eyes are

the same, uh, but it -- we're just, we're just gonna have to,

it'll [?] be better, we know that they exist and the

differences are it's better that we just see them at this

point. The best answer to that is, let's wait a couple years

and just invite them. {laughs} Invite them in front of the

camera themselves. They've gotta get over this very soon.

This is not something that we're talking about our children or

our grandchildren experiencing, this is something that we're

gonna see in our lifetime.


ART BELL How soon?


DR BROWN Well, I don't expect anything before the presidential

election for sure, and when I tell my colleagues uh, you know,

how they should judge Cosmic Voyage, uh, I tell them, give me

two years for things to sort of pan out a little bit, in terms

of open awareness of [?] extraterrestrials, open

acknowledgement that the extraterrestrials exist, uh, and so

on, and then to get communications starting, but I would think

something has to happen very soon, before the year two

thousand, because those Beings on Mars are not happy campers,

they've got to get off, something has to happen soon, and in

addition, the Martian thing is going to be coming to a head

very soon because we've got these probes going -- now either

the probes are going to be blown out of the sky, uh, which is

what happened to the Mars Observer probe that we sent up, I

have a chapter on that, Mars Observer probe in Cosmic Voyage,

uh to us an interplanetary probe is one thing, to _them_ it's a

spy satellite, and it's one thing to send Viking stuff, but to

send, to send high-resolution modern interplanetary probes

there takes away the clandestine nature.


ART BELL Will they blow, will they blow them up?


Well they make take it out, but no matter how it happens,

somebody, people are gonna ask questions. If they, if they

blow them up, 'cause they don't want us to see, 'cause they

wanna continue the clandestine nature because they're

frightened of us, then people will ask questions, in which

case, stuff will start coming out. If they don't blow them up

and they actually arrive on the planet and start taking

pictures, I mean one is gonna be a rover, on the surface, [?]

on that orbits the [?], if we start taking pictures then people

are _definitely_ gonna start asking questions. By the way, I

should say something that's very important. Do you know --

well, actually, you do know -- I uh -- that there is an

internal rule in NASA that's absolutely enforced under all

conditions, that right now there are no live out the window uh,

video broadcasts that are done from any uh, uh, shuttle that's

orbiting the earth. Meaning, if a shuttle's above, uh it's

absolutely illegal under NASA rules to, to actually put a, a

video camera out there and actually film what's going on out

there. Why? Because too many times, the ETs use it [as an?]

opportunity to attract our attention, fly a ship in front of

the camera, really quick.


ART BELL Well there was SKS48.


DR BROWN There's all types of problems like that. Now, with

Mars, there's a similar thing, there's an internal rule in NASA

saying that there's no live coverage before it goes through

security clearance, of anything that they discover on Mars.

So, you know, NASA knows that there's something going on, in

fact, in Cosmic Voyage, in the chapter about the Mars Observer

probe that was taken out, uh, I actually cite a New York Times

article, and, you know, and in that front section of the New

York Times they actually, when Mars observer uh, _was_ taken

out, uh, some of the people in NASA started to talk openly, and

in that New York Times article it actually describes, it

actually quotes some of the people uh saying "Look, that place

is a jinxed place," we're actually talking about, uh...


ART BELL Doctor I remember when the Mars Observer was

destroyed. And I can't recall the source, I'm so sorry, but

there was something about an object, or something, that was

just briefly seen, or sensed --


DR BROWN No. You're thinking now about the Phoebos probe that

the Russians sent out. And what happened was the uh, they took

out that probe as well, and what happened was, the last photo

that came from the Phoebos probe was of a, basically a very

highly lighted ET ship approaching the craft at high speed.


ART BELL That's right.


DR BROWN But the last -- well that's well known. But what was

not well known is, is the telemetry of the probe, the last

telemetry that was sent over was an energy pulse that surged

throughout the ship, and then it went silent. So it was

blasted. Now, when it took out the Mars Observer probe, we

know this from remote viewing data, [?] -- you know we sent

people there on -- it's a very interesting target to send

people to, so we do that -- and uh, uh, the Mars Observer probe

was not taken out with an energy pulse. They apparently didn't

want to make the same mistake that they did with the Phoebos

probe. So what happened was, they didn't want any suggestion

that an ET ship was approaching, or that an energy pulse went

through the ship, they didn't want any last minute or last

second evidence of it. So they took it out with a physical,

you might call it like a cannonball, a physical, a physical

object, so they literally shot it with a, with a humongous

cannonball and just blasted it out of the sky, and then it, for

all intents and purposes, it just blinked off {Bell: It did.},

from the uh, from all the stuff in NASA, it basically looked

like a meteor hit it, so that was a, a change in strategy, I

don't know what's gonna happen to the two probes that we're

gonna be sending up but you can be guaranteed next year's gonna

be very interesting.


ART BELL Alright. Why are they doing this? If they are

desperate for contact, then why not allow Mars Observer, why

not allow --


DR BROWN They may, they may allow the next two probes. But

the point is, up until now, they wanted to keep themselves

secret, because they're literally just on a survival race right

now. The Greys didn't put them in a situation where they have

everything that they -- you know they didn't have the kitchen

sink and everything that they could dream of -- they just, they

literally have to rely on -- and they're just like us, they're

conservative, they want conservative, guaranteed strategies,

they want the ability to fly in and out of this planet and get

resources, for food and other things they need, and they don't

want restrictions, and the last thing they want is a, is a

panicky human race and aiming them up rather than at each other

{Bell: Yeah, that makes sense.}, they, they want us to get to

the point where we're calm. Now I must say, when my book

Cosmic Voyage first came out, one of the most important things

that I did, nature provides these things, I don't believe in

coincidences anymore, was I was offered a chance to go to New

Mexico, and I was put on the strongest radio station in New

Mexico, broadcasts out of Albuquerque but it has uh,

transmissions all over Santa Fe and everywhere else {Bell:

[KROB?].} and it's the very same station that I'm broadcasting

on with you right now {Bell: That's right.} and uh, for three

hours on a talk show I talked to all of New Mexico and it was

beamed right over Santa Fe Baldy, the Martians were listening

and there's no question about it, I talked for three hours

counseling humans about how they, how we need to be tolerant

and acceptant, of other species, of other groups in trouble,

and it was the first time that Martians were able to see a

human counseling other humans in such a broadly publicized

fashion, about the -- about their own existence, about the

Martian existence. That is gonna be a very great thing. A

very great maturing step for us as a species. When we not only

acknowledge that we do not live alone, but that we have

neighbors, and that we need to participate with these

neighbors. The plot thickens every single day on this thing.

It's not like we just say, "OK we have neighbors, so they're

there." It's like, we've gotta interact with them.


ART BELL Doctor, the Brookings report --


DR BROWN Oh yes.


ART BELL Oh yes. Well, for all your counseling, I mean, right

now on the planet, we can't even get, we can't even get along

with ourselves, uh despite Rodney King's best uh, uh,

pleadings, we can't get along with ourselves, so, Martians?!

DR BROWN That's correct, but you know, we have -- uh, I'm an

optimist with regard to us, we have a lot of growing to do,

that's why we're here, remember this physical human experience,

getting back to the very beginning of the show, is an education

for us, and one of the things we need to learn is, sometimes

growing a curve's fast, sometimes it's slow, but these next ten

years [are?] on the fast track of growing, and as a species we

are going to be going through some major changes with regard to

our awareness of ourselves, who we are, our composite nature.

Just the idea of remote viewing is changing everything. By the

way, you know they did a survey, of scientists, a regular

survey done by normal scientists uh about telepathy, and it's

now passed the fifty percent mark. Fifty percent of all

scientists now acknowledge that telepathy probably does exist.

We're getting there.


ART BELL I believe it, I don't doubt that at all. But here's

a good question for you. If these Martians have been

protective of their identity and their presence, then uh,

forget about our government, they must be, they must be very

upset with people like you.


DR BROWN No, they're happy, because they know that this

clandestine nature, the secrecy has to end. They have to come

here, and it has to be open. They're waiting for it to occur.

How do they want it to occur? {Bell: Are you --} They want it

to occur with the best possible, the best possible means, they

want it to occur in a situation where humans awaken, look up,

and say

"welcome." {Bell: That would be nice.} Not arm ourselves

{Bell: I understand.}, but --


ART BELL That would be nice, but we're armed to the teeth,

Doctor. And --


DR BROWN Yes, that's why the Martians are staying secret,

because it's a very dicey situation.


ART BELL Dicey indeed.


DR BROWN Well it's a very delicate situation! You're dealing

with a panicky human race that has a genetic composition that

can't see beyond its birth and death, and uh, you know, and has

movies about invasions from Mars. I mean in the, in December

there's gonna be a new movie coming out called "Mars Attacks."

Now I'm not upset about that, because it's another one of those

cathartic releases that gets it out and it also opens the idea

of Mars being alive again, but I -- I don't know what the

screenplay is, but the very idea of 'Mars Attacks' coming out

at the end of the year is gonna be sort of interesting. We

bring Mars back to consciousness again as being a, a, a planet

that has life, but the reality is, the Martians are very

concerned about their image, I mean they've got a bad rap with

regard to uh, movies. {Bell: They do. They [inaudible as both

speak simultaneously]} -- they've gotta get over that, but

it's not their problem, it's our problem, we're gonna grow out

of that, but the result is, we've done the remote viewing into

the future. Art I have to tell you that the remote viewing in

the future is absolutely, unequivocably, is absolutely certain.

We do get over this hump. And we do establish relations with

our neighbors. {Bell: Well -} And they do come here.


ART BELL With respect to the, the, what you have told us about

the Martians, there and here, how sure are you?


DR BROWN I'm certain. Now look, first of all, I'm not a

gambler. The only time I've ever gambled was when I was in

Reno and I was passing through on a bus, much younger --


ART BELL Yeah that's gambling.


DR BROWN - and I put 187 pennies into a slot machine, and lost

every one {Bell: laughs}. Now listen: I don't gamble. I'm a

very conservative person. I have a pristine reputation in non-

linear chaos catastrophe theory type application and social

scientific research. I don't need the problems of, of a book

on ETs. The reality is, I don't do anything unless I'm

certain. I'm certain enough to risk my entire professional

career. If there are no Martians, I wouldn't be able to get an

article, I wouldn't be able to get a letter published with Dear

Abby --


ART BELL A point well made, and the last one this hour, looks

like we'll go the whole way, stay right there, I'm Art Bell.


[break] [small piece of introductory message missed here]


ART BELL Professor, um, suppose somebody were to go to New

Mexico with big digging equipment and explosives and um, test

your um, your, your, your theory --


DR BROWN Well let's hope that doesn't happen. Uh, you know,

uh, if they were actually going to attempt to physically

extract the Martian base, hopefully the government would get

involved, besides, it is a National Park, so that wouldn't be

allowed you see, a National Park is a perfect place for such a

situation {Bell: That's true.}, not many people, it's a low

density state, it's a National Park, uh, the only thing they

have to worry about is backpackers -- understand that the

Martians have a technological ability that's not very far away

for us even, figuring out -- uh, the ETs, both Greys -- by the

way, we've gone four hours and we haven't even _begun_ to talk

about the Greys, and you won't _believe_ their story, [?] it's

an extraordinarily interesting story --


ART BELL It's right on my list --


DR BROWN -- Yeah, but uh, let me just, let me just mention

that somehow there's a technological ability to change the

phase, vibrational something or other of matter, so that

physical matter can pass through other matter. Uh, ET ships

don't need a tunnel to get through rock. They flip a switch

and they go through. In the abduction uh, phenomenon, the

abduction literature, for example the stuff that's written

about by John Mack {Bell: Right through walls.}, he writes

extensively about how ETs uh, pass people through walls {Bell:

Right.}, windows, they never open the window {Bell: That's

right.} uh, and, the reality is, for the Martians to get to

their base, they're flying their saucer, they're flying their

ships, they flip a switch, they go right through the mountain,

and then flip the switch off when they get inside the hangar,

underneath the mountain, uh, it's a perfect place, uh, the only

thing that they have to worry about is backpackers, uh, so it's

certainly a good enough place for a processing center, uh for

the next, uh, could, couple some-odd years, while we're sorting

things out, but the remote viewing, I have a chapter about this

in Cosmic Voyage, the remote viewing done under totally blind,

laboratory controlled type conditions uh, of the future of that

base is that eventually uh, it's a, a tunnel is made to get

into the base, and it becomes an immigration processing center.

{Bell: OK.} And so uh, you know, a tunnel is made, train tracks

are put through it, I mean, passing in and out with advanced

ships may be ok for the Martians, but when it gets to humans

putting people in and out on a processing center, immigration

processing center, we're gonna want tunnels and, and, you know,

vehicles that can go in and out normally.


ART BELL OK. Since time is short, I wanna ask -- I've had

Graham Hancock on my program. Um, Richard Hoagland on my

program. And countless others who would tend to verify a great

deal of what you're saying. So I've got to ask you, about the

pyramids {Brown: {inaudible as they both speak simultaneously}}

-- wait now, wait now -- the pyramids on Mars, the face on

Mars, and what we have at Giza, and how it relates to what

you've been telling us, if it does.


DR BROWN Well, the Martian Cydonia complex, where the pyramid

is, as well as the uh, the face and so on like that, those,

those are clearly the ruins of an Ancient Martian city, we send

people there all the time, it's one of our favorite spots to

send people, because it's such a clear target, we send them

back in time to the time when that place was actually active,

and in fact you see people running around, people doing things,

you can actually see the city in dismay when a volcano erupts

nearby {Bell: Really?}, yeah, when the, it's a, it's sort of

like Pompeii when, when the volcano goes by, but also when the

climactic problems start to occur, you see the destruction of

the city, 'cause they didn't have a high technology back in

those days. And so they were really, terribly affected. And

so um, uh, that's clearly the remnants of a, of a city. So

those are -- [?] so what Richard Hoagland and others have been

saying about those being ruins is true. Those are ruins. And

that's very near-term, you're not gonna have to wait for your

kids and grandkids to know that, you'll know that in your own

lifetime. Now the other thing is, uh, Mars and, uh, Egypt, you

know, seems very, very parallel, because we indeed have a

Sphinx, we have pyramids and so on, and we have to remember

that the word Cairo, the root to the word Cairo, in Arabic, is

Mars, Cairo means Mars, that's the root of the word. And uh,

there was a tremendous parallel in culture between the

Egyptians three thousand years ago and the ancient Martians

that were destroyed. There may be a very specific link between

Mars and the ancient Egyptian culture. I don't know that link,

we haven't, we only have, we're trying to get more remote

viewers to solve so many of these problems, but the, I don't

believe in coincidences anymore, there's enough coincidental

similarities to make me think that it's certainly worth a very

good look, uh, because the word Cairo means Mars, uh, the

pyramids, the face, the same type of stuff, the same ruins, uh

it's too reminiscent of --


ART BELL So these will be targets.


DR BROWN Yeah, these -- but something like that has to be

resolved in a project, and a project means a whole bunch of

remote viewers {Bell: I understand.} remote viewing something

under tightly controlled -- and you're dealing with

professionals at this point, not just trainees. {Bell: Right.}

Trainees have experiences and we publicize that, and we put

them up on the Net, but many of these projects require uh,

professionals working -- and we're getting that way, let me

tell you that there are many people uh, in our

Professionalization Program, after taking the Farsight Voyager,

the first intensive one week course, there are many people that

have you know, stayed with it and are going onto the

Professionalization Program. Everybody that takes the course,

so far, absolutely every single person has had very clear

remote viewing results, but the point is, we want many of those

people to go on and become professionals, and as many as are

intuitively driven, or drawn, we want them to become teachers,

we want them to become better than the best ever were, we want

them to be better than myself, uh, you know, every generation

of remote viewers is gonna be better than the past generation.

So uh, we're trying to get you know, this Institute expanded as

much as possible. We know that the future of the Institute is

very bright, because, we know that uh, uh, the things that are

already out in the press, Cosmic Voyage, things like that,

those are things that are just on the very near horizon for

being verified. You know the one thing is, we have known the

remote viewing results for a long time. The laboratories have

had solid evidence of remote viewing being an operational

capability for three decades. But it's not made a dent on the

planetary population. Scientists and others have been able to

just simply disregard it, and say it's just not relevant, or

just plain say it didn't happen, like just to ignore it, but

the reason Cosmic Voyage is so important as a book, is it

raises the stakes phenomenally, because it's no longer a parlor

trick. Now, remote viewing, a demonstration of who we are as

composite beings, remote viewing is now used to say something

before it actually occurs, and when the actual ET stuff really

hits, in the very near future when we really all are, the

planet talking about our interplanetary neighbors, then

everybody will say, wow, remote viewing really isn't a parlor

trick, consciousness really matters, this stuff was all known

and published in advance of it actually occurring -- that means

that the understanding of who we are as beings, the nature of

our soul, leaves the realm of idlers and enters the realm of

the mainstream, and that is one of the most exciting planetary

changes that we're going to be seeing.


ART BELL The Greys. Let's do it. Who are they?


DR BROWN Those Greys are interesting. You know, they had a

bad rep. What had happened with the Greys was, the early

abduction literature was filled with horror stories, about how

they were abducting people in the middle of the night,

performing gynecological and neurological experiments, and, and

procedures, and --


ART BELL Are they?


DR BROWN Well -- in a way, but the reality is, we now know the

whole picture. You see, back when we first got introduced to

Greys, back in 1947 when in fact, the Roswell thing did occur,

we sent people there uh, under uh, under totally blind

conditions regularly because it's such an interesting target,

there really was a crash. We can even now, find, we

occasionally target even the wreckage now, where the remaining

parts are, what laboratories the parts are and things like

that. The point is, back in 1947 when we first found out as a

government about the Greys, the government was put between a

rock and a hard place. What could the military tell President

Truman, and all the other presidents afterwards? They could

say, "Well look Mr. President, you can tell people on the radio

or on television or whatever, uh, that the ETs are here. They

have extraordinarily advanced technology. Basically we're

defenseless. And that they may be doing some things to our

citizens that our citizens may not particularly like. Oh and

by the way Mr. President, the only other thing you could tell

them is uh, that everyone can panic at their own discretion."

And every president since Truman has said the same thing: I'm

not going on the air with that.


ART BELL Well I wouldn't either.


DR BROWN You've gotta give me something better, there's got to

be some hope at the end of this tunnel, and one of the main

reasons for Cosmic Voyage is to give the other end of the

picture, to give the information that was lacking back in 1947,

so we now know that in fact we're not being invaded by hostile

species, if anything the Greys are, are as helpful to us as

they were to the Martians, they're the calvary, the rescue

corps, but the reality is, the Greys are an _extremely_

interesting, _extremely_ benign and helpful species. Now let

me explain. They had a lot of, lot of bad press. And the

reason is, because they're so different from us. Let's go

back. The Greys. Unlike the Martians, destroyed their own

homeworld. It wasn't a interplanetary holocaust that was not

of their own making, they were very similar to us, except they

were, they did not have the limitations that we have, that were

completely telepathically aware, even back then, uh, but, they

were very similar to us in that they were burning themselves

off their own home planet. They basically killed their own

planet through wanton abuse of their environment, greed,

selfishness, the works. And what happened is, they had to go

underground in order to survive. Not too dissimilar to what

we're gonna be facing in a hundred years -- actually less than

that, about eighty -- but, the point is, they had to go

underground, and when they went underground, the [?] as a

matter of survival, they had a collective nervous breakdown.

They had -- well now we have to start fiddling with our

science, with our genes. Well we'd, it'd be nicer if we were a

little shorter, because it's hard to walk around in these

tunnels. It'd be nicer if we had larger eyes, there's not that

much light down here, down under. And then they started to

saying well, you know, as smaller Beings it's harder to give

birth, we might as well start raising our fetuses in, in tubes,

in like, large canisters. And then they started to say, "Well

look, we're getting good at this genetics manipulation stuff,

why don't we solve the problem in the first place. Why don't

we get rid of the rampant emotions, the greed that we have and

everything else that drove us to this stuff?" And then they

did the following: You know when you have a happy experience?

You have happy molecules that are created electrochemically in

your brain. When you have an unhappy experience, you have

unhappy molecules that are created. That's why a mood takes a

little while to dissipate, 'cause the molecules are still

hanging around. And the Greys said, "Let's change our brains,

genetically, so that we have only the one electrochemical

response to any stimulus that we get. And we'll try to advance

spiritually." They were self-realized, in the sense they knew

they were composite Beings. "We'll try to advance in the

spiritual realm, and we'll get rid of all the anger, all the

hostility, everything" -- they even got rid of love. On the

electrochemical level. And what they have is basically a

society that's not that [?] different from Spock.

Electrochemical brains that produce only one benign response to

anything that happens to them, and they evolved spiritually,

tremendously -- but they realized eventually they were in a

cul-de-sac, a dead end, the reason for them Being composite

beings, physical as well as subspace, was so that they could

experience something in the physical realm. And then, they



DR OTHA WINGO74201,35252 200-18185 [ realized that unless they had more emotional flexibility in

their minds, they couldn't be like some of the very great

Beings that they discovered out in the realm. They needed to

experience more. Yet they were terrified of going back to

their own past. They were terrified of their own past

genetics. Because that's what led 'em into that problem, that

collective nervous breakdown in the first place. They went to

the Galactic Federation. All of this is explained out in

detail, point by point, in the book Cosmic Voyage. And they

went to the Galactic Federation, served as, as outstanding

members of the Federation for many projects, including rescuing

the Martians, for a long time, and they eventually, finally,

submitted, like going for a National Science Foundation grant,

they submitted their own application, for help in a genetic

uplift project for themselves. And they picked our planet,

Earth, because a tremendous variety in genetic variation on

this planet. And they applied to the Galactic Federation and

said, may we have permission to go there and use the gene pool?

They were awarded the grant. They were said, they were given

permission. And then, they got here, and what they do, you

have to understand, we were alive before we were alive, we were

alive before we were physical bodies. They go around, we've

witnessed this countless times, they go around and people,

human beings, or Pre-human beings, people before they are

physical human beings, volunteer. And they say, countless

times we've seen this, and the Greys ask for permission. And

the people volunteer and say, "When I am a physical human

being, I am willingly going to participate in this so-called

abduction phenomenon so that you can get some of the genes to

help uplift the species." By the way, I have to say, before

the commercial happens, I have to tell you, we have to come to

this at the next half hour, the project works. It is one of

the most beautiful transformations of the species that anybody

has witnessed on -- ever, and the point is, many humans

volunteered before they were human, knowing full well that when

they were, when they did become human, because of the

limitations that we have self-imposed on ourselves with regard

to our own genetics, that we would not remember the experience.

And when you actually have an abduction experience, you don't

remember that in fact you gave permission, but the Greys are

almost comical, in the way that they ask permission for

_everything_, and so the point is, that when we remote view,

say, for example, a woman, but it happens with men too, but a

woman, being abducted, being transported up to a Grey ship,

having gynecological procedures going on and fetuses going in

and out and so on, on the surface level if you put a meter up

to her electrochemical brain it's like right at the meter, it

would break the meter, panic, chaos, horror, everything: but

then the remote viewer can go deeper, and we have, many times,

you go into the subspace component, the subspace aspect of the

person, the soul, and you find ecstasy, the reason for

existence, fulfillment of purpose, and it doesn't make sense!

And then the remote viewer has to travel back in time, before

the person was born, and you find a fully sentient being

saying, "I participated."


ART BELL Alright. Hold it right there, we'll be right back.

Doctor Courtney Brown is my guest. There'll be more.




ART BELL Back now to Doctor, uh, Brown. Doctor, um, they want

you to talk more about the Greys, I've got a few phone calls I

really really wanna get to, but I wanna ask you, where are the

Greys from?


DR BROWN They're from another planet. They're clearly not

future humans. They're from another star system in our galaxy.

We're not dealing with galaxies that are far away. By the way,

we must understand something that's very exciting. One of the

remote viewing sessions uh, that was introducing this concept,

we've later gotten it much more thoroughly, but the remote

viewing that I've written about in the book, Cosmic Voyage, uh,

one of the remote viewing sessions indicated that we, when we

got to the Galactic Federation Headquarters, uh we actually had

an interview, uh, the military remote viewing was never

interactive, it was always just -- they disregarded any

interaction is basically what happened, but we have gotten it

to the point where we actually, with telepathically capable

Beings, you actually can get information backward and forward,

uh, when you're doing the remote viewing, uh, professionals

can, and uh what we've found out was that there, is that the

Galactic Federation actually needs us, we're not just kids

coming out of the daycare camp, there's actually a role for us

to play, the Galactic Federation is _not_ spread throughout the

entire galaxy, and there's, you know, there's, it's literally

like the Star Trek series {Bell: Somehow I'm not surprised.},

the Federation is expanding, and there's, you know, and there's

literally [?] to explore, and things like that --


ART BELL Somehow I'm not surprised. What you seem to suggest

though is that genetically, um, without tampering, without

changing genetically a race, any race, really, is ultimately



DR BROWN Well no, no, no. Listen, listen, listen, listen.

Nothing, nothing, ever, stays constant. {Bell: [?]Yes.} So in

that sense, everything is doomed. The point is, evolution is

the only name of the game in town. There's no other game. The

reason that the Greys are different from humans is that some

Beings prefer the Grey experience to existence over the human

experience to existence. {Bell: I understand.} And we choose

to enter the human realm and to participate in this human realm

for awhile until we get tired of it and move on, but uh, the

difference is, is that there is endless variation to existence,

and some experiences are different than others. And the Greys

experience life differently than us. Now. Art. Before we run

out of time, I - I just have to say one thing. I'm a very

controlled remote viewer, in the sense that, uh, I'm fully

professional, I run a school, uh, actually there's a number of

people, a whole bunch of us running it now, but the point is,

that in a remote viewing session, I never "lose it," in the

sense of, you know, any emotions I get are clearly put in the

right spot and I don't, they don't affect what I'm doing. But

twice, I almost lost it. Let me tell you those two

experiences. The first, was when I remote viewed the future

Greys. The result of this genetic project. The Greys found

they needed a new experience, a different experience. They

didn't want their old genetics, they wanted something brand

new, they wanted part of our genes. They don't want the whole

thing, they consider us a dysfunctional species in some

regards. {Bell: Oh, we are.} We're aggressive, we're

territorial, we fight, look at our divorce rate, look at how we

treat kids a lot of times, or the homeless people. Well, they

don't want our aggression, our hate, our anger, our fear, our

territoriality, they don't want that. But, they do want the

love, the nurturing, the caring, all the good things. And so

those are the genes that produce those type of electrochemical

responses for love, caring, nurturing, things like that, that

they're splicing in, slowly but surely, into their own genetic

framework. And when we have remote viewed the future, the

first time I did this, the future of the Greys, when you go to

their planet, yes they have a planet, a future planet, when you

go to the planet where they take this race, that literally is

our grandchildren, they are our offspring, they're half us

{Bell: I understand.}, and when you go to this planet, and look

at them, and do a mind probe and perceive them, it can, it's

just one of the most beautiful things anyone could ever see.

They're like, you know we've also remote viewed uh, famous

personalities, like Jesus, Buddha, things like that -- uh why

not? They lived at one time, they -- obviously no one dies, so

you can remote view them at any time. And uh, the Jesus

personality is a very interesting personality. Uh, when I

remote viewed the Greys, the big difference between the

personality of Jesus and the personality of the Greys was that

Jesus had more of a command structure, more of a command

personality, more of a, you know, sort of an authority type of

-- very pleasant, but you have to sort of experience it, the

words don't do it justice -- uh, but Jesus is a very uh,

beautiful personality to remote view, we send trainees there

from time to time, he's been very cooperative under completely

blind situations. But, with the Greys, it's like that, you get

all the love, all the nurturing, all the caring, none of the

hostility, they're like the types of people you want next door,

the ones who always have a cup of sugar when you need it.

{Bell: Good neighbors, yeah.} And now the other time, the

second time, that I uh, almost lost it in a remote viewing

session, and what that means is I almost had to just break off

the session, the emotions were so overwhelming, is uh, the

emotions of the target were so overwhelming to me. Was when I

remote viewed the Martian flotilla, leaving Mars, finally, when

the day of exodus, like the, like the Israelies, Israelites

leaving Egypt, the day of exodus when they leave their prison

planet and come here, that flotilla -- it almost chokes me up

when I just think about it -- but, the emotions of those

people, the euphoria, of coming, to the promised land, Earth,

coming out of their imprisonment to the promised land, the

emotions inside that flotilla when it comes in our not distant

future, is just one of the most remarkable states of emotional

awareness that has ever been experienced by anybody. {Bell:

Alright, I --} They're happy to come here.


ART BELL Doctor, we've gotta take a couple of calls. I have

people waiting, so let's do it. First time caller line, you're

on the air with Professor Brown, hello.


CALLER Good morning Art. Uh, you've absolutely outdone

yourself this time, this is incredible. Uh, Doctor Brown, good

morning to you.


DR BROWN Good morning, and I want to thank you for calling.


ART BELL Where are you Sir?


CALLER Uh, [?] Colorado, [listening to you on KCSB out of

Pueblo], and uh, Doctor Brown, I'm a skeptic, but I'm an open

minded skeptic, and uh, I'm one of these "show-me" type people



DR BROWN That's healthy.

CALLER And I'm gonna, I'm gonna get your book tomorrow, and

I'm wondering if I'll be able to find information in that about

your, your intial one week uh, seminar there --


DR BROWN Absolute -- well actually, in the back of the book,

there is a section for contacting the author at the Farsight

Institute, so the, the PO Box and everything, the address, is

there in the book. I want to also say that in the web page,

people can contact us on the web page, and uh, uh, we're also

in the phone book and stuff like that, we have information

packets, plus applications that we mail out. In addition, if

you go onto the web page, you can not only find us, find out

about us, but you can also see some of the student results,

we're trying to get them posted as fast as we can, by the end

of the summer we'll have a whole bunch of new stuff, but uh,

uh, we've got a, we've got 11 people's stuff posted now, and

lots more is coming {Bell: Alright --} -- uh, yeah --


ART BELL Thank you very much, so there's the answer, caller,

all the information you need, uh for contact is in the book,

and the book is in any, just about all the bookstores --


DR BROWN It's in all the bookstores, it's, it's, it's, it's a,

it's a, it's selling very very well and uh, uh I should also

say that there eventually will be a paperback version, but that

probably won't be 'till 1997. {Bell: {laughs}} By the way if

a bookstore's sold out, just tell them to order it, they can

get it quickly.


ART BELL Alright. Wild Card line, you're on the air with

Professor Brown. Hi. Where are you?


CALLER Hi. I'm in Toronto, Canada. Um, Doctor Brown, you

were talking about Roswell {Brown: Yeah.}, and uh, I was

wondering if the Army has possession of the bodies, if there

were bodies that were found, and if they were Martian or they

were Grey, or do you have any description on that.


ART BELL Good question.


DR BROWN They were Grey, they were not Martian. Uh, you know

the odd thing about that Roswell event -- by the way yes, the

wreckage is uh, is still around, we even send some remote

viewers from time to time to the current location of the

wreckage, it's sort of -- when you get to the point where you

can do things like this, you have to think of new targets that

will keep the --


ART BELL I understand. Where is, where is the wreckage?


DR BROWN Actually, you know, to, I, to, to, to locate it

geographically is something you can't do with a trainee, and

that's all we've done, we've send trainees to the actual

location and they get identical descriptions of this type of

thing. But to locate the actual geographical location you need

a full project, and that we just have not had the resources to

do yet. {Bell: Alright -- } Cosmic Voyage is a full project,

we have some full projects, Cosmic Voyage is a printed full

project --


DR BROWN I am beginning to understand the difference. Uh,

East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Brown,



CALLER Uh yes, this is Bill in Minnesota. Uh yes, Professor

Brown, I'm wondering uh, how do your uh, administrative

supervisors at Emory University uh, how much do they know about

your work, and how do they feel about it?


ART BELL Good question.


DR BROWN Oh they know, they know all about what I do. But I

do, I do different things at Emory than I do at the Farsight

Institute, I've clearly separated them out, and also, they have

a very great respect for academic freedom here at Emory, so at

the Farsight Institute, uh, which is a private institute, uh we

teach the remote viewing, we talk about these things, and at

Emory University I teach my courses in, in non-linear

mathematical applications of social scientific phenomenon, and

other things like that. I keep those things basically

separated, and, and Emory has a very very strong tradition of

intellectual freedom, it's one of the most prestigious

universities in the country, but I must stay that it started

out, as a, as a Methodist university, long, long ago, so it was

founded on the basic idea that there is something real to the



CALLER I mean, are they generally supportive, are they,

don't consider you sort of an oddball or something like that?


DR BROWN Well uh, you know it's more benign neglect than

anything else, and that's the way it should be, because that's

the way, I've, I've asked it to be that way.


ART BELL {laughs} Alright, fair enough. Uh, West of the

Rockies, you're on the air with Doctor Brown, hi.


CALLER Hi this is Dawn, um, I'm calling from Phoenix

Arizona. I have a question about uh, as far as research you've

done, and your studies at the college there, uh, have you ever

had a situation where any of your controlled subjects had an

um, an experience, or told you about, control stations dealing

with influences about remote viewing, uh, of a different kind,

not so controlled, on a deeper level? I'm trying my best here

to attempt this...


DR BROWN Explain it a little more. Um, I don't quite

understand --


CALLER I have done remote viewing, with control stations

throughout the United States, I have worked with the

government, the military, um, I am a subject of a different

approach of that one aspect of remote viewing. And I wondered

if they have ever seen anything of the nature of, um, you know,

um, government, computer systems, people -- literally, things

tapping into your brain --


[inaudible as Brown and caller talk at the same time]


DR BROWN Uh, I have no -- you know, one of the good things

about being a Professor is uh, you, you have the authority to

say, you don't know. And to be quite honest, I don't know. We

haven't had any experiences with seeing anything like that,

that doesn't mean something like that doesn't occur, I know

some people in the military, in the official military remote

viewing project, have stated to me on occasion that they think

such things go on, um, and some of the -- I don't know -- but

uh, I don't know anything about it.


ART BELL OK, good enough. Let's uh, let's continue, we only

have a very few moments, and I've kind of ignored the phones,

first time caller line, you're on the air with Doctor Brown.


CALLER Good morning.


ART BELL Good morning, where are you?


CALLER Southern Utah. I'd like to ask uh, Courtney Brown a

question. My question is uh, I know Joe McMoneagle, I was at

Monroe Institute uh, for two different weeks, I'd like to find

out, uh, phone numbers on how to get a hold of this Farsight



ART BELL Do you want to give that out, Doctor?


DR BROWN Oh sure. Actually, the best way is to write us

though, because uh, we're overwhelmed after a show like this,

with the phones, and uh, but I will give out the phone number,

but let me give out two phone numbers, uh, the fax number is

something good, because something physically written like a

letter or a fax is always better because we have an address we

can clearly get, and the fax number is 404-636-5148. And if

you faxed us your address and so on like that, then we can get

information packets to you. And the regular phone number, and

uh, if the secretary's not in there'll be a computer voice mail

system that will allow you to uh, leave address and so on like

that, is 404-320-2007. But it's much better to uh, other than

leaving voice message, it's much better to actually write us,

at Farsight Institute, PO Box 49243 Atlanta GA 30359 USA. The

address for that is in the back of the book, Cosmic Voyage.

And uh, for people who are interested in remote viewing

training, a very good first step is often just to get the book,

and uh, uh, ask for an information packet, and we send it right

out. And to those people who do have Internet access of

course, you can get _immediate_ satisfaction by just zipping

through our home page.


ART BELL So Doctor you are right now at the home of the

Olympics, which have just gotten underway -- you have not taken

a look at whether they're going to be safe, have you?

DR BROWN No, we haven't looked at that. You know, you have to

understand that there's so many projects and the, the things

that are sort of, uh, current events happening right now, uh,

it's very hard, given the number of people we have trained

right now, to mobilize things for sure like that. In the

future, when there are literally more remote viewers and more

projects going on, then we'll be able to do things like that.

But at this current time I'm just looking like everybody else

is looking, at the television and wondering what's happening.


ART BELL Alright. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with

Doctor Brown, hi.


CALLER Yes hello, this is Mark in [?] Kentucky. I came in a

little bit late, so I apologize if this has already. Um, I'm

like one of the other callers, I'm a little bit skeptical with

some of this, um, I was wondering if Doctor Brown could give us

any kind of an unequivocable, undeniable future event, in the

near future, so that we can confirm this really works.


DR BROWN Absolutely. Go out and buy the book Cosmic Voyage,

I've put my whole reputation on the line with that. The point

is, it's printed, it's in print, and it's either true, or it's

not true, you don't have to argue about it, in the sense that,

someone can say you cross the street, you can talk to them

about it and you can say, well what do you think, and they can

want to get into an argument about it, and you know what you

can say? Just say hey, there's no use in arguing, let's just

wait a while. Patience is a virtue. And if it turns out to be

true, you'll know it. The books is the proof. If it turns out

that, that there are no Martians, that there are no Greys, then

you know, I'm ruined. I'm not a gambler, I'm not gonna be

ruined. But the point is, the book is the proof. It's the

biggest proof that'll ever be needed. In fact it's written

precisely to be that way, so that the question of, of whether

we actually have a composite, a composite nature, whether

remote viewing actually works -- that will be totally and

irrevocably removed from our setting, from our agenda, forever,

when the ET stuff finally happens.


ART BELL Well Doctor, we're running out of time. Um --


DR BROWN It's been a joy.


ART BELL It really has been a pleasure to have you. And we

will -- obviously, there's so much untouched ground that we

will have you back again.


DR BROWN Well, I will be very pleased and always honored, uh,

whenever you invite me to come.


ART BELL Doctor, get some sleep.


DR BROWN I shall.


ART BELL Thank you my friend.

DR BROWN Thank you Art, and you have a great day.


ART BELL And goodnight. Alright everybody, that was Professor

Courtney Brown, and many many many of you have requested his

presence on this program for a long time, and, so we finally

connected. Now, I would like to close by thanking all of you

who have no doubt stayed with us throughout the night. I will

tell you to get a copy of the absolutely incredible program

that you just heard, you can call 24 hours a day, 800-917-4278.

That would be the program you just heard with Professor

Courtney Brown of the Farsight Institute and Emory University.

[end of transcript]





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